phono cd

[chambers1517]

A friend and neighbor has a great invention. He has a cd player that introduces feedback into the audio. I don't know how it works and he wouldn't tell. He says cd is superior to phono in every specification except environmental interaction. When you listen to live music you get feedback. A phono introduces feedback also. Sounds and vibrations are picked up by the needle and platter. This gives it a live feel that a cd doesnt produce. Listening to his cd player is incredible. It really has a live feel to it. If you hit the side or top of the case there is a loud thump just like hitting a mike or turntable. It doesn't introduce anything odd just depth and realism. He is trying to market his idea and I think it is great. What do you guys think?

[LarryC]

Hmm -- I don't think LPs sound as good as they do primarily because of feedback, although the theory is interesting. I and at least one other forum member have our LP players in the next room anyway, away from such feedback.

Some Wadia CDP's insert a very low-level random signal (dither? noise?) that it calls "self-similarity," which fills in the brick-wall silence at those low levels in CD playback, and seems like a similar idea.

There indeed are those folks who believe CD is "superior to phono in every specification." Others who have reasonably good LP equipment and listen to it, will normally not go along with that (I'm one of them). To them, LPs usually sound more like the music.

[mark1101]

Did your friend play any live music for you? Almost all the music I play is live.

[TubeGuy]

Rambling reply - be forwarned.

I guess I'm confused. What happened to "perfect sound forever"? It astounds me that someone would actively pursue trying to add to cd one of the banes of lp playback.

I know I work very hard at tyring to reduce mechanical and airborn feedback in lp play. Every success in this regard improves the sound. One of the things I like about lp's is there seems to be much more information stored in the grooves of a record than imprinted on a cd. ( this may not be true, but at least with lp's I can get to it) Most of this additional info is low level detail that can add to better soundstaging, timbral accuracy and improve dynamic shadings etc, etc. Any form of resonance, whether caused by airborn sources, platter/arm/cartridge, or other mechanical feedback issues, erodes the retrival of this low level info resulting in gross innacuracies at worst and limiting my choices in tailoring lp sound at best.

This last aspect is one of the things that I love about lp's. You have the ability to, as Burger King says, " Have it your way." Hey, it's a tweekers delight!!!!

Now in all seriousness, I would think the effect would get old after a while because it can't be controlled (or colored[]to taste?) It does bother me that you say when you tap on the cd player you hear a "loud thump". Doesn't sound like a good thing!

Bottom line - I think I would put my money in a better cd player. Interesting concept though.

With 25 years working in television and audio recording studios, I have never heard reproduction sound like a live event. Even when listening to master tapes, it's always contrived. The recording is only as good as the engineer and the technology at hand. With the engineer, it's his/her way. With technology, well it doesn't exist to faithfully capture the aura of a live event.

So why bother with all this stuff? Because the recording to playback process is an art unto itself. AND, it's a different experience. Whether live or recorded, music can elicit our full range of emotions. THAT"S ART.

I've blathered on so much, I have changed my initial reaction to your post. If it paints the picture you like - go for it!

Edit: I'm waiting for Duke Spinner to post a "Get the flamethrowers out" message. Ya gotta love Dukes avatar - it fits his posts so well!

[BiggerIsBetter]

Is your friends name Bob Carver?

[]

[TubeGuy]

Bigger,

Bob Carver tried to do just the opposite. Back in the seventies I bought one of his pop and click/companders. It was adverised for lp playback and reducing recorded noise floor. In retrospect, he was trying to achieve what cd promised. It just seems that we're never happy with the way things are!

BTW, it sucked.

[chambers1517]

I don't know if I can explain this the way it was explained to me, but I'll try. The best lp and phono can not match the specks achieved by the cd format. The lp can not match the frequency response along with every other speck of the cd. A cd sounds the same every time you play it. An lp changes every tim it is played. If someone shuts a door or the needle tracks slightly differently the sound changes. Tap on your phono while it is playing and there is a thump. The turntable is basically a mike. It turns mechanical energy into acoustical energy. Reel to Reel, casette, cd etc. are not affected by the enviroment the way a turntable is. He said there is no way to achieve live acoustics without live feedback. I don't know but it did sound really good. If you put the needle on a record without the turntable turning, and the amp is on. Someone can speak into the record and you will hear them through your speakers. Try it.

[TubeGuy]

Feedback should be left to the live/recording event. It's the only hope of reasonably, and with any accuracy, capturing the live event. Unless you just want the added distortions - which may be valid since music reproduction is a personal preference thing.

btw, I would never go thumping my turnatabe. They're too darn expensive and delicate! (I know your just making a point . In fact lp users go to great pains to isolate their turntable systems, ie. seprate rooms, isolation stands, various record mats etc. to block the very thing that your friend is trying to add. I only reiterate this because it completely baffles me that someone would want to purposfully add distortions into the the playback system.

Additionally, we fight "live feedback" all the time in our listening rooms with the hope that we can reproduce the live acoustics of the recording venue as it was at the time of recording.

As you can see, the concept just baffles me. Sorry, I don't think I get it. Being over 50 causes you to get set in your ways. Just be glad I'm not in charge - Man that would be a scary thing!

Edit: I think it's cool what your friend is doing. Mind excercises are good for the soul and, heck, he might just hit a home run! Even if I don't get it, I applaud his inquisitiveness.

[Mallette]

The lp can not match the frequency response along with every other speck of the cd.

Several inaccurcies or at least, deviations from my own experience, but this one is an obvious boner. In the '70's, LP's were produced with response out to 50k.

Those who know me in the Forum know I am hardly anti-digital and, in fact, agree that it is equal to or superior to analog once you get out to 24/192. But at 16/44.1 there is NO comparison to my ears even though I am 56 and pretty deficient in the high end. Nonetheless, I can clearly detect the "brick wall" cieling. Don't ask me how, but I cannot deny what I clearly hear.

Dave

[jacksonbart]

Sounds like just introducing extra distortion on a CD to make it more like an LP. Hey what ever works, its only audio so its all good.

[tigerwoodKhorns]

A friend and neighbor has a great invention. He has a cd player that introduces feedback into the audio. I don't know how it works and he wouldn't tell. He says cd is superior to phono in every specification except environmental interaction. When you listen to live music you get feedback. A phono introduces feedback also. Sounds and vibrations are picked up by the needle and platter. This gives it a live feel that a cd doesnt produce. Listening to his cd player is incredible. It really has a live feel to it. If you hit the side or top of the case there is a loud thump just like hitting a mike or turntable. It doesn't introduce anything odd just depth and realism. He is trying to market his idea and I think it is great. What do you guys think?

March 23, 2006. That's the date that the clock started ticking. Maybe sooner if others were told about this invention.

365 days later, if no patent is being pursued, bingo, public knowledge in the public domain.

Who can I send the bill to for this legal advice?

[Mallette]

Well, I poopooed the "CD is superior in every way to LP" without really addressing the main claim. That particular statement is demonstrably incorrect both scientifically and to the ears.

OTOH, it would be religion, not science, to condemn a concept to which I've not been exposed based simply on one incorrect placement of a foundation stone. Stinkin' thinkin' and requires a checkup from the neckup.

While I don't believe that what makes LP's sound so good has anything to do with feedback, my "beliefs" are subject to correction by demonstration.

Let's see (or hear) if it works.

Dave

[pauln]

I doubt the live sound is based on feedback. On my turntable (30 year old B&O 1900) if I bang the table I get no sound through the system. The table is suspended on a sub chassis and the motor for the belt is again sub-suspended within the first mentioned sub chassis. The table weighs about 20 lbs and is solid as a rock. No feedback ever experienced. In fact, I've never had a single incident or problem with this table and will keep it as my 'number one' for its life. A well engineered product is certainly a joy for the long term.

[oscarsear]

There's a lot of variation in what cd and even sacd's sound like. Some do sound way too sterile while others clearly do not. Perhaps this is the goal/purpose behind this contrivance to re-instill some kind of aural measure which results in better overall reproduction. Maybe an analogy could be drawn between this and an extremely poor cd player and the best cd player. The better player reads the cd finer, massages the signal better and perhaps alters resolution for strings versus brass at the users choice. Maybe this cd player feature recognizes a particular reproduction variant then refines the playback for a more live performance????