WATCO Danish oil

[Kriton]

Ok, I know this has been knocked around a few times, but...

I have decided on using Watco to finish up my old Heresys. The

speakers are birch, but were previously finished with what I have to

assume was a very heavy oak lacquer that was allowed to sit on the

speakers when the staining was taking place, and over the years that

finish grew sticky and almost opaque brown (looked like brown paint in

splotches).

I have rough sanded (well with 150 - 200 grit) the surface down

as much as I dare (takign great, but there is still remnants of the

brown stain in the cracks of the grain, so instead of putting on a

natural oil that would bring this brown out, I want to use a Watco

product, with some 0000 steel wool and work it into the grain, produce

a nice satin finsih, and be done with it...

However, I want the color to be as close to black as I can, to cover up

the brown streaks, BUT Watco doesn't make a black product in the oil

stain that I can find...so, can I add a black stain to the Watco as a

cutting agent, should I even bother...maybe just get a cherry finsih

and leave it at that?

I would like some thoughts here...

Thanks,

K

[jorjen]

Watco is available in a "Dark Walnut" color. It is pretty dark, test it. Were you able to sand down to good wood for the most part? A conditioner may help you even things out some prior to application of the Watco. You can even use a Watco "Natural" as a pre-treatment prior to color. Play around a bit, you will get it.

[Marvel]

Formby's still makes their furniture rejuvinator that will dissolve old lacquer. You can use it with a fine ScotchBrite pad to smooth out the old remaining lacquer. It thins it enough so that what is left will penetrate the wood even more. I have used in on some really good furniture with lousy old finish coats, and it works really well. You end up with a lot of goo in the pad, which you rinse out with the rejuvinator.

The downside is that it is probably bad for the environment, and it won't remove all the color or the original lacquer, only smooth it out. But that does make it easier to put another finish over the top.

Bruce

[PrestonTom]

Kriton,

I get very nevous when I hear that someone has sanded the cabinets with 150 grit. That is pretty abrasive considering how thin the birch ply actually is.

If you are staining over a previously lacquered finish, any portions that still have lacquer wil not absorb the stain. In this case, the darker the stain then the more noticeable the imperfections will be. A bit of solvent might be appropriate to get the last bits off (further sanding would not be recommended).

If you are going for a black or near black color you might not like the Watco oil. Oil finishes do not typically have much sheen. After staining you could use a spray can application of a lacquer. IMHO, the greater amout of sheen works better with a dark stain,

Good Luck,

-Tom

[Kriton]

Tom,

I understand your concerns, I had the same. I was very very

careful to knock off just what I needed to get to good wood, just

touched the surface. I am down to good wood, so there are no

stretches of laquer still on these things. The brown can only be

seen in the deepest lines of grainand that is what I don't want to dig

into...That is why I wanted to rub the Watco into the grain with finest

steel wool...

I was looking at just a satin black, not anything super shiny...but

with a little of the grain showing through - that is why I was asking

about black..thought that might fill in those cracks...

I may just hit it with cherry and have done. Is it possible to

stain over natural Watco? That just doesn't seem like it would be

a good thing either?

K

[PrestonTom]

Tom,

I understand your concerns, I had the same. I was very very careful to knock off just what I needed to get to good wood, just touched the surface. I am down to good wood, so there are no stretches of laquer still on these things. The brown can only be seen in the deepest lines of grainand that is what I don't want to dig into...That is why I wanted to rub the Watco into the grain with finest steel wool...

I was looking at just a satin black, not anything super shiny...but with a little of the grain showing through - that is why I was asking about black..thought that might fill in those cracks...

I may just hit it with cherry and have done. Is it possible to stain over natural Watco? That just doesn't seem like it would be a good thing either?

K

Not really. Stain has to go on "raw" wood or else it will not absorb. BTW the lacquer will not necesarily be super shiny.

Good Luck,

-Tom

[greg928gts]

Side note: Hi Jorden, long time.

I have had very good luck starting with 120 grit sandpaper on a random orbit sander. One does have to be very careful, but I have found that the original veneer on the Heritage line is thicker than you might think.

It is tough to get the stain out of the veneer all the way. I did it with Gary's Heresy's when I sanded those down to be re-veneered. I was surprised at how far I could go with the sanding and not go through the veneer. Nonetheless, I wouldn't recommend just sanding alone to get every bit of stain out. The advice to use chemical products to remove lacquer and/or stain is right on. Rugged stuff all around, but it does the trick.

Take your time, the prep work is everything when refinishing wood. If you take some time and use a good product to strip them down, you won't have to use as dark a finish and I think you'll be happier with the end results.

Greg - www.dcchomes.com

[meagain]

Exactly, I'd hit it with chemicals. How else will you be able to get the stain out? Then you can start with a clean slate.

Often when I read refinishing posts here, there is no mention of using strippers - just tons of sanding. I don't understand why when it's so much more work?

Here's a pic where they used Minwax 'Ebony' stain. Is this the look you are going for?

http://www.eldamar.net/audio/rs150mtm/graphics/P0000519.jpg

Use a wood conditioner or else.... eww.

[meagain]

Greg - I was just at your JBL redo page (Page 4). Oh my! The Sapele pair is stunning. And the walnut re-do is exactly what I'd like my dull, flat, poop, brown khorns to look like! (Would love to know how you did them).

[Xover]

If it is (was) truly a lacquer finish the stain is probably lacquer based as well. Lacquer doesn't cure like enamel ( seed oil finishes) it just dries as the carrier evaporates and thus remains soluble to that solvent. So just try some lacquer thinner to clean up the remaining streaks, won't hurt the wood.

I have used the Minwax Ebony stain a number of times and the picture in the above post is a very good representation of what the finish looks like.

BTW sandpaper tip. Last summer I did a job in Arkansas where I built some custom birch furniture and discovered Norton 3X sandpaper, this stuff is amazing in how fast it cuts. I used 220 then 320 and it produced a super smooth finish fast. Bought it at either Lowes or Home Depot.

[ScorpsFan]

Kriton,

I have to agree with the suggestions given so far, remove the reminants of any other stains and coatings first (probably chemically since you have already sanded) and seriously consider the Minwax for a black color. I have Watco dark walnut on a large walnut cabinet and it doesnt turn out as dark as you might think, also other similar cabinets I've seen after several years in walnut with the Watco (no refinishing) actually were mistaken for a teak/cherry coloring.

Best of luck with your project!

[Kriton]

Thanks for the help guys.

I already picked up the Minwax black stain in anticipation of this

project, but the more I read and heard, I wanted the Watco oil finish

steel wooled into the surface. Further, I read several times that

folks who have used the Watco cut same with 1/2 mineral spriits when

they are doing the rubbing with steel wool?

Hence the question on whether I can put the black stain in the Watco and get the best of both worlds?

So ya'll would suggest lacquer thinner to attack the remaining

lacquer/stain in the cracks? Mind you, the brown streaks are very

very thin (about the size of birch grain), but I really think they

might be noticeable if I try to stain over them with a lighter

stain. I could try to color match the stain that is there with

some other Watco product and then it would match.

Thoughts?

K

[meagain]

Yes, you can apparently add some stain to the Watco. Klipschguy explains this in detail here: http://forums.klipsch.com/forums/thread/701789.aspx. I don't think there is black tinted Watco.

I'm sure if you're going for a 'black with woodgrain showing' look - you wouldn't need to pull out the color in the depressions. Or - is there a place that you can test it?

[Xover]

The color in stains is usually dyed clay particles so if the original stain was lacquer based then lacquer thinner and a brush should be able to remove the streaks in the grain of the wood.

Most stains can be applied with fine steel wool what you are doing with the steel wool is roughing up some of the wood fibers to give the clay particles a place to stick. this gives a more uniform color to the overall finish. Conversely if you sand smooth with fine sandpaper wiping the stain on will give more contrast between the annular rings (grain). The newer gel stains are also good at allowing you to control the uniformity of color.

Now if it is acceptable trying to match the original stain color will probably yield the easiest and most risk free path to favorable results.

As for mixing the ebony and Watco stains I'd definitely try that on some scrap wood first. Mixing stains sometimes yields strange results. As for thinning the stain I can't comment on that I've never done that. You can manipulate the coloring by wiping the stain at different stages of curing with a dry lint free cloth ( old Bose t-shirt) or one very lightly dampened with mineral spirits.

[Marvel]

I would still suggest the use of the ScotchBrite pads, so you won't have to worry about metal particles anywhere near the cabinets, risking them getting into the horns, attracted to the driver magnets.

Bruce

[greg928gts]

The Sapele was a total reveneer.

The Walnut was a refinish. I sanded them down and did some detail work, a little filling with putty, and then a wipe-on polyurethane by Minwax.

Greg

[meagain]

greg928s4 - That's all you did? Then you are lucky you had a warm walnut tone to begin with. Mine need some color. I'll be interested to see your future projects! That Sapele is beautiful.

[Xover]

BTW I agree with not using steel wool. Scotchbrite will work and no metal shards to find magnetic fields or to turn black if you happen to be doing oak. I rarely use steel wool for applying stain.

[Kriton]

OK - UPDATE

I have been working on this cabs for a while - and here is what I have discovered through trial and error -

First, adding a black stain to the Watco was a mistake - the black was

not black enough to come out looking black, what it did was kind of

cool, but not what I was looking for - the grain ended up black, and

the rest of the surface wood became a dark walnut brown looking, rather

strange, but definitely not what I was after...

SO, I had an idea - I purchased some Behlen DYE based stain (jet black)

and stained the crap out of the cab. It looked like flat black

paint, but it didn'tt raise the grain, and the things were black

black... it also killed any hint of grain (unless looked at from the

side) -

THEN I hit them with the Watco natural oil, and bubba let me tell you,

the black became blacker, the grain that was there started coming out

and they have a nice satin sheen - I started by rubbing in the Watco with a

0000 equivalant Norton synthetic pad (like Scotchbrite per your advice)

but I wasn't developing any kind of "slurry" at all nothing, hardly

even turning the pad black when I really expected the stain to lift

right off...

Therefore, I am going to hit it with another coat or two of Watco, with

a heavier grain sanding block (oerhaps the 600 grit mentioned) , and

then finish off with the Scotchbrite?

These things are looking pretty sharp, and the finish is almost what is

on my painted RF-7's (not that I will be mating the two) - but it is

interesting to see the results...I will try to post some pictures (when

I get around to taking them and figuring out how to post them too).

Any one have any further suggestions? I am waiting on new caps

for the crossovers, and have polished the horns, and painted the

motorboard that had the original finish slopped all down the front...

Thanks for the help...love these little projects, and huffing some good chemicals...

K

[mbajner]

here is a link to a product that I used on my Kitchen cabinets with great success

http://www.howardproducts.com/restora.htm