New improved Universal ALK network Version 6

[Deang]

"However, this is completely different from the basic assumption that there is a direct correlation between cost and performance."

The Solen F&F are a good value. Of course, by the time you pay the brokerage fees to have them shipped UPS Ground from Canada, the price difference between those Solens and the Hovlands is only a few dollars. At any rate, in this particular instance we are comparing capacitors of like material and similiar construction. My original comment was more in the context of inexpensively made metallized types using motor run and/or recylced film, compared to capacitors of the same type using the thicker virgin polypropylene and have had greater care applied with the lead terminations. Compare the size of the capacitors:

Sonicap, 24uF, 200vdc, 34 x 71

Solen, 24uF, 250vdc, 30 x 43

All things being equal, the capacitor with the higher voltage rating should be bigger, but you see, things are not equal, and things that cost next to nothing cost next to nothing for a reason. If I didn't think the caps that cost more make my system sound better I wouldn't use them. It would nice if the less expensive caps sounded as clean and open as the ones that cost more -- but they don't.

[Erik Mandaville]

Dean:

"It would nice if the less expensive caps sounded as clean and open as the ones that cost more -- but they don't."

To you. And that's as it should be. You should use what sounds best to you. I've building crossovers for 15 years, and have used many different kinds of capacitors. You also said that the best place for motor run capacitors is the trash can. There are actually quite a number of people who use them in networks -- not for their price, but for the way they sound.

Erik

[sfogg]

" but you see, things are not equal, and things that cost next to nothing cost next to nothing for a reason. "

And sometimes that reason is nothing more then because they are built in very high quantities and gain huge economies of scale.

The filp side is true too. Sometimes things that cost a lot cost a lot for a reason.

OTOH sometimes it is for no other reason then there are suckers out

there that will pay a high price for it for great profit margins. Ever

read about the 'Tice Clock?'

Or that it couldn't be considered an 'audiophile' product and people

wouldn't take it seriously if it didn't cost a lot.... so they price it

higher.

Sometimes the more expensive thing is just more expensive.

Shawn

P.S. I'm still waiting for one of you crossover guys to start using glass capacitors......

[3dzapper]

Some might find this useful:

http://www.10audio.com/sonicap_oimp_multicap.htm

Rick

[chops]

Just curious, why are they called motor run capacitors? What were they originally designed to be used for?

[Hardhead]

Good work! You broke the code!

[3dzapper]

Chops, AC high power motors run stronger and cooler with multiphase power input. The problem is the majority of low volume commercial and residential electrical service is single phase.

As you know, capacitors shift the phase of the incoming AC. By using motor run capacitors a pseudo multiphase voltage is fed to the poles of the motor. Because of the high current demands and it's resultant heat, motor runs are built very ruggedly and are often bathed in a thin oil to help transfer heat from the core to the case for dissipation.

Rick

[chops]

Chops, AC high power motors run stronger and cooler with multiphase power input. The problem is the majority of low volume commercial and residential electrical service is single phase.

As you know, capacitors shift the phase of the incoming AC. By using motor run capacitors a pseudo multiphase voltage is fed to the poles of the motor. Because of the high current demands and it's resultant heat, motor runs are built very ruggedly and are often bathed in a thin oil to help transfer heat from the core to the case for dissipation.

Rick

Thanks Rick!

I didn't know that. Pretty insteresting stuff. (for me at least) []

[Deang]

It would nice if the less expensive caps sounded as clean and open as the ones that cost more -- but they don't.

"To you..."

Yes, but just not me -- but to a lot of other people too.

"You also said that the best place for motor run capacitors is the trash can."

Yeah, that was over the top, and it was wrong for me to say it (and do it:). I was doing a lot of my early comparisons with my Heresys, and what I found out was that the cans only sounded good to me at the lower volume levels. When I pushed the Heresys, everything just sounded like a mangled mess. I just thought the Auricaps sounded smoother and noticed things held together better at the higher SPLs. Later, when I tried them with Type AA's, I noticed the same thing -- congestion and reduced coherency during busy passages. Later, I had Bob send the caps I needed to build a set of my networks so I could hear them in an application I was more familiar with. He had the 40uF values left over from the Georgian and Patrician networks he had been working with. I built them up and loved the sound. It was a rich, meaty, full bodied sound with good slam in the lower mids. I still have those networks, and will probably never part with them. I reported on this at one point, and I believe I even apologized for the statement. What I believe is that much of what I was encountering that I took issue with wasn't related to the cans so much but to the nature of first order filters and the limitations of the K-401. However, I still believe that if the old designs are used, the speakers sound better using the likes of Auricap or Kimber.

"There are actually quite a number of people who use them in networks -- not for their price, but for the way they sound."

Absolutely. However, the cans cost considerably more than Solens!

[3dzapper]

"Absolutely. However, the cans cost considerably more than Solens!"

Yeah huh? Can you imagine the bruhaha if PWK were still building Khorns with AAs and he switched from those "fantistic" oil cans to those "chinsy plastic" Solens?

[consistent]

Congrats Al! I have been using Sonicaps for some time (I beleive they are in Klipsch country) they replaced the Hovlands in my pre-amp. I found them to have better tonal balance and decay. Their bottom end was bigger & tighter than Hovland, where Hovlands had a more pronouced top end with more detail. I thought Hovlands also seemed to have more loudness & pitch to the Sonicaps. Is you network capable of a tweet crossover at 4500hz?

[mark1101]

Bravo Al, I think you made a smart move. Your networks are of the finest most accurate design and should be built with the better parts. So what if they cost a little more. There's no other way to get that sound. It's the ticket to the show.

Ask Dean how many versions of the ALK Jr. he built for me until I found the best sounding for me? Just part changes...and improved sound.

I got all Sonicaps for my ALK Bs for my corns. Except for that big 62uf (Solen).

Great job Al, and Dean I agree with what you posted here.

[mark1101]

Al, I see you also reduced the wiring on the autoformer. I always wondered why you had so many leads. This looks better.

[Deang]

"Absolutely. However, the cans cost considerably more than Solens!"

Yeah huh? Can you imagine the bruhaha if PWK were still building Khorns with AAs and he switched from those "fantistic" oil cans to those "chinsy plastic" Solens?

Well, look at what they used in the AL/AB/AK series of networks, Heresy II, Cornwall II, Forte, Forte II, Chorus, Chorus II, KLF-10, 20, 30, and now the new stuff. Where's the "bruhaha"? Funny thing is, the cheap Solen sounds better, and irony of ironies -- I have to actually defend myself for yanking that crap and using stuff that sounds far better than any of it.

[Deang]

Al, I see you also reduced the wiring on the autoformer. I always wondered why you had so many leads. This looks better.

More user friendly too.

I have a feeling this new filter kicks some serious butt.

[Al Klappenberger]

Guys,

I think the move from Solen FastCaps to the Sonicaps is an improvement. I hear and read so much stuff about one cap brand over another that I think most of it is just perople hearing what they want to hear. Even on the subject of "bypassing". One guy says it improves the highs and the next guy says the unequal time constants of paralleling two caps of unequal value causes a smear becasue of unequal time constants. The bottom line could be nothing more than snob appeal. Regardless of wether it's a real or imagined improvement I beleive it's best to err on the side of what has the best chance of being the "best". After all, I am trying to build the "best"!

As to a 4500 Hz crossover version, I did a post here on the forum about how the DIY builder can make a 4500 Hz version. I really don't want to offer a 4500 Hz version myself becasue it's nothing more than a crutch made possible by Bob's new tweeter to get around a bad squawker horn (K400 and K500). The RIGHT answer is to upgrade the squawker with my Trachorn or an Altec VOT horn and leave the crossover where it is. I think a good squawker horn will do a better job of reproducing a midrange extended to 6000 Hz than asking a tweeter to do it. If you want the "best" you want my network crossed at 6000 Hz and a better squawker horn. If you want to retain a marginal squawker just becasue it there, maybe you should go for one of Bob's clone networks with the extra coil crammed on top of the existing one.

Al K.

[Erik Mandaville]

There is a challenge related to this, in that the 'customer' is sort of obliged to accept what sounds best to the designer or builder. There is a real misconception that has continually grown here concerning Solen capacitors, which I think are very well suited to crossover duty -- as are the motor run capacitors in the BEC network. I had a pair of Bob's type 'As' here for awhile, and enjoyed them very much. They didn't sound harsh to me in the least. In fact, they didn't sound anything.

Dean: Again, my crossover building goes back nearly two decades, and I have used many different capacitor types. In recent years, there are companies who figured out that branding caps with names like 'Sonicap' 'Auricap' 'Hovland Musicap' and so on, may lead to a possibly erroneous belief that there is (...ahem) a direct correlation between the name a product is given and subsequent sales. Look at the prefix here: 'Soni' 'Auri' and 'Musi' and then attach 'cap' onto that, and you have a super premium, audiophile grade capacitor. A capacitor is a capacitor, but the fancy name it's given has purely to do with marketing. Nothing wrong with that, companies have to generate sales somehow, right?

Same is true for interconnects. Whether a given IC consists of single conductor plus shield/ground return or two conductors plus shield (grounded at one end), it will remain that and nothing more irregardless of the catchy name it's given -- such as being named after a particularly toxic species of snake, or a mountain famous for its staggering height (Gee, I know that ------- is a really high mountain! These cables must be the ultimate in performance!) One kind of speaker or IC refers to the name of a certain early civiliazation's afterlife. And then check out the price that, no pun intended, tags along very closely behind.

I have seen Al's work in person, and his networks are like sculpture. Beautiful craftsmanship, and good enough in appearance to be displayed out in the open. I'm sure they also sound very good.

You see, unless a crossover network is built to provide interchangeablility of caps, particularly those in the tweeter and midrange branch, a customer will really never know what he or she might be missing. Having used Hovlands myself, there were times where they sounded overly bright. But I have the ability to yank the things out and put something else in. Cost aside, I very strongly submit that there is the possibility that someone might prefer the sound of a less expensive, less exotically-named, component -- whether it happens to be an organization of parts that combined form a preamp or amplifier, or indeed a single passive part in a frequency discriminating circuit.

I should go and look for a Glass Audio article I have. I can't remember the name of the builder, but he refers to capacitors as seasoning -- as in salt, pepper, and other spices. He indicates that the value of the part is critical, but the type or brand of cap, price issues aside, is chosen according to personal preference.

Erik

PS: Dean,You're right, motor run capacitors cost a few dollars more than Solens.

[RAD]

Al, Please help me save $575! As you may remember I already have you universal networks installed in my Belles. Without a doubt they were the single biggest improvement I could have made in my system. Last month I installed BEC tweeters which also improved the sound. I thought I was there--the best sound I could get out of the Belles now I see this. At the risk of costing yourself a sale please tell me that the improvement to your new networks is not great enough to justify me replacing the ones I have now, even if it is not true. I guess sometimes you just need a little reassurance! Thanks for your support!

[Al Klappenberger]

Rad,

The improvement to my new networks is not great enough to justify you replacing the ones you have now.

Ok.. You asked me to tell you that, so I did!

Actually, I don't know if it's worth it or not. The new set will be shipped Tuesday to a fellow who has an identical set built using Kimber Kaps and Solens. He will be exchanging them and will tell me what difference he hears. Maybe he will post his observations here when he's compared them.

AL K.

[RAD]

Thanks Al, I feel much better now!