New improved Universal ALK network Version 6

[Erik Mandaville]

"The improvement to my new networks is not great enough to justify you replacing the ones you have now."

This is very honest, Al!

My line of thought is such that even if the owner of the new networks DOES like it better than the old one using slightly different parts, the impression is still unique to him. It is impossible to use one person's or even that of several people as the baseline for everyone else.

When it comes down to it, I would do the same as Al, and continue making what the majority of my customers preferred -- regardless of what name the cap happened to have on it.

Erik

[meagain]

You see, unless a crossover network is built to provide interchangeablility of caps, particularly those in the tweeter and midrange branch, a customer will really never know what he or she might be missing.

Being able to easily switch out caps would be a nice feature. Clearly, there's enough people citing the differences in sound from various caps.... which has had me perpetually curious as to what I may or may not be missing and what a different brand could bring to the table in my particular situation. Like tube rolling.

(Signed: Control Freek)

[Deang]

There is a challenge related to this, in that the 'customer' is sort of obliged to accept what sounds best to the designer or builder.

A real problem, especially as it relates to networks and how it effects the speaker signature or voicing. I simply make a choice based on what I believe works best for the particular application and hope the buyer enjoys the result as much as I do. What else can I do?

There is a real misconception that has continually grown here concerning Solen capacitors, which I think are very well suited to crossover duty --

It's not a "misconception", and it's not just "here". They have a grainy quality to them like polyesters. For networks, there are simply better choices. Come to think of it, I believe most SET designers/builders refuse to use them in the signal path, and I don't think you'll find anyone recommending them as coupling caps. Why don't you cut one of the epoxy ends off and examine the lead termination? Wanna know what BEC sees with them when he does his ESR measurements -- he won't use them either.

I had a pair of Bob's type 'As' here for awhile, and enjoyed them very much. They didn't sound harsh to me in the least. In fact, they didn't sound anything.

What is the point in this comment? Is it related to the cans, the circuit, or both. I already explained my position. At any rate, I think the Type A sounds terrible when pushed hard, and it doesn't matter what parts are used. Now, if those networks are so transparent and enjoyable then you and others should be perfectly content with them indefinitely. However, that isn't the case now is it?

Dean: Again, my crossover building goes back nearly two decades, and I have used many different capacitor types.

Why do you continually feel the need to establish your experience in this matter? I've only been doing this for 3 years, but you won't find me using variable L-pads or trying to use an autoformer as an inductor. I don't care if you've been doing it for 50 years. If you want to impress me, build your best cheap networks and bring them to one of the gatherings -- then load your work in front of a room full of people for evaluation.

In recent years, there are companies who figured out that branding caps with names like 'Sonicap' 'Auricap' 'Hovland Musicap' and so on, may lead to a possibly erroneous belief that there is (...ahem) a direct correlation between the name a product is given and subsequent sales.

It's called "marketing", which is a by-product of Capitalism. Everything is sold this way, not just capacitors. This is old ground around here and has been discussed many times before. So, here is the challenge: Find me no-name brand parts of the same material, construction, and equivalent quality. There needs to be a wide selection of values, and able to be purchased in small to moderate quantities.

A capacitor is a capacitor...same is true for interconnects...

or

I can't remember the name of the builder, but he refers to capacitors as seasoning -- as in salt, pepper, and other spices.

So which is it?

You see, unless a crossover network is built to provide interchangeablility of caps, particularly those in the tweeter and midrange branch, a customer will really never know what he or she might be missing.

Consistancy thou art a jewel. You're all over the map on this issue, and it's really impossible to have a reasonable discussion with you about it. You appear to vary your position just so you can be argumentitive. Let's see, caps are basically caps so you might as well use cheap ones because they really don't sound all that different than more expensive ones but they do sound just different enough that you kind of have to try them all to see which you like the best and... -- enough already.

Having used Hovlands myself, there were times where they sounded overly bright. But I have the ability to yank the things out and put something else in.

They sound too hot in first order filter sections with the K-77. They sound great in Al's tweeter sections, Type AA, and later AK/AL/AB series of networks.

Cost aside, I very strongly submit that there is the possibility that someone might prefer the sound of a less expensive... component.

Anything is possible, but not likely -- especially with compression drivers and horns, where low level information is pushed to the top, along with any low level hash and grain which is then ruthlessly presented along with the music.

...less exotically-named, component...

I refer you back to my earlier challenge.

[Deang]

He will be exchanging them and will tell me what difference he hears.

I already know the outcome. There are 3 people out there who's ALKs I upgraded by replacing the 39+1 Solen/Harmony combination with two 20uF Auricaps. Email responses after the upgrades bordered on the emotional. Since I had done it myself to my ALKs, I actually wasn't all that surprised. Everything passes through that primary position -- it's the most important cap in the circuit. If I'm wrong with my prediction, I'll let you guys decide my punishment.

[Deang]

The first of the three posted what he thought about the result.

http://forums.klipsch.com/forums/1/360788/ShowThread.aspx

[Al Klappenberger]

Dean,

I remember seeing that thread now. I just couldn't swallow the price of AuriCaps at the time. I still can't swallow their +-10% tollerance. Paralleling two caps to make 40 uf (old value) allows you to compansate for that error though. I'll be doing that with the Sonicaps too. In this set, the 24 uf caps in one network measures 23.56 + 23.66 = 47.22 uF. The other measures 23.48+23.79=47.27 uF. That is matching within 0.11%! And -1.8% error from the desired 48 uF. You won't get that close using single 48 uF caps, or 47 uf, which is the closest standard value.

Al K.

[jwc]

Dean. Your ability to pull out and old thread to prove a point cracks me up.

Here is another thread that wasn't that long ago that was one of the best threads I've read in awhile. Eric, Al, Bob, Dean, Craig, etc was involved in the discussion too. There was a good debate on "accuracy vs 'sonic quality'" which I found very helpful. I would like for Al to reread his comments......it shows that even the "best experts" can change their minds as time and experience rolls on. He is still sticking to his guns on "accuracy" but now is giving a little more credit to a caps "sonic" attributes. Al...am I getting this right?

Yet again..a thread like this one is interesting to read and chew on some more.

http://forums.klipsch.com/forums/1/628190/ShowThread.aspx

jc

[Al Klappenberger]

Jc,

I remember that thread! That was the one that convinced me to offer my original "ALK" network with Kimber Kaps and offer the Hovlands as an option! I also did a price cut at the same time, from $500 down to $430. I managed to convince myself that using Hovland Musicaps was nothing more than "snob appeal"! Now I have come full circle to building them with nothing but the best parts I can find. My customers have spoken and I heard it! Beleive it or not, the price cut is still in there. The base price of $430 + $44 (Hovlands) + $85 (the new parts cost difference) = $559. I also decided to add in $16 for the trouble! Greedy cuss aren't I?

Al K.

[jwc]

The ALK's you built for me in 2004 had the Hovlands in there and the network was great. I think your label on them was 177A and 177B. I noticed your latest build had 200 on them. You should know better than anyone what the cap exchange does to that network. Now that you have changed the values of the mid cap and the woofer inductor, this will be all but confusing when people say "my ALK universal A" sounds like "this and that". Best of luck having to step in and clarify all these statement when the subject comes up.[]

I sold those La Scalas with your network in them to some hotshot out of Memphis Tennessee who won the NATIONAL BBQ contest in 2004. He had no idea what that network was all about. He will use those speakers on the road for these big outdoor BBQ presentations. When people drop their mouth at the sound of those speakers and then go buy a pair of La Scalas with that Deadbeat AL network, they are really gonna scratch their head with disapointment.

It was real dumb of me not to got some free BBQ out of that deal. My wife still gives me crap about it.

Now back to caps. With my little testing experience, I really haven't noticed that the Solen fastcaps are any disapointment in the mid filter. Where they don't work as well is in the tweeter filter.

FWIW.

Will wait to hear some feedback of that new design from forum members or I'll just have to try it out myself.

jc

[chops]

The ALK's you built for me in 2004 had the Hovlands in there and the network was great. I think your label on them was 177A and 177B. I noticed your latest build had 200 on them. You should know better than anyone what the cap exchange does to that network. Now that you have changed the values of the mid cap and the woofer inductor, this will be all but confusing when people say "my ALK universal A" sounds like "this and that". Best of luck having to step in and clarify all these statement when the subject comes up.[]

I sold those La Scalas with your network in them to some hotshot out of Memphis Tennessee who won the NATIONAL BBQ contest in 2004. He had no idea what that network was all about. He will use those speakers on the road for these big outdoor BBQ presentations. When people drop their mouth at the sound of those speakers and then go buy a pair of La Scalas with that Deadbeat AL network, they are really gonna scratch their head with disapointment.

It was real dumb of me not to got some free BBQ out of that deal. My wife still gives me crap about it.

Now back to caps. With my little testing experience, I really haven't noticed that the Solen fastcaps are any disapointment in the mid filter. Where they don't work as well is in the tweeter filter.

FWIW.

Will wait to hear some feedback of that new design from forum members or I'll just have to try it out myself.

jc

I bet those Scalas are smelling pretty good right about now! I love the smell of a good BBQ. []

[Al Klappenberger]

Jc,

It's interesting about how bad people seem to think Solen FasCaps are when you think that I have built 200 sets of these and every one has used Solen FastCaps. They really must be awfull! The only other caps I have ever used where in the early prototype. This was the 3 rd version and used North Creek Music Zen caps. I didn't use them becasue of the 10% tollerance problem. Just for laughs, here's a picture of verison 3 prototype.

AL K.

[Deang]

"Now back to caps. With my little testing experience, I really haven't noticed that the Solen fastcaps are any disapointment in the mid filter. Where they don't work as well is in the tweeter filter."

I read that and it just makes my head hurt! No, they're not "a disappointment" -- they're fine, they're O.K., they get the job done. The questions are, 1) is there something that works/sounds better, 2) If there is something better, should I use it?

Look at what you just wrote and think: If they don't "work as well" as something else in the tweeter circuit, why would they work as well as something else at the primary position?

[BS Button]

Yes. I should have done a little better with my question. I was wondering about the use of the 2.2 uF instead of the Hovlands. I forgot about the size. The hovs are long and skinny. The Solen F & F are shorter and fatter.

Oh I get it, "It's short, but it's not very big around" best line ever.

[NOSValves]

Dean,

we are finally having a positive effect on Al !! Of course I think this was mostly your doing but I like to think I had a little something to do with it!

Great job Al !!

Craig

PS I think it will take electric shock therapy for a few around here.........

[Erik Mandaville]

Dean:

I mention my experience because I have enough time under my belt, both with crossover construction and from building amplifiers and preamplifiers to know what matters in this. It's not the cost of a given part, nor the name it's given. It's what a person happens to like, and what people like may or may not have anything to do with the cost of admission. That's not so difficult a concept, is it? There are designs 'out there' where much higher priced parts make little or no difference. If there is a change in sound, it does not necessarily automatically mean the change is for the better. It may be for the worse.

However, if you really do believe that there is ALWAYS a strong correlation between cost and performance, the following link may be of interest.

http://www.madisound.com/mundorfcaps.html

Meagin: A customer/user having the ability to switch between perhaps 3 different capacitor types is something I have proposed here several times. I just have so many things on my plate right now or I would make one myself. It wouldn't be difficult to do. That way, one would be able to choose what he/she prefers, rather than be forced to accept the taste of the person who built the networks. People do not always like to hear the same sorts of things, and capacitors can be one way of altering the sound. There is no doubt in my mind that different types of capacitor construction DO sound different. Whether those differences are postive and good, and moreover justify the cost, should, IMO, be entirely the right of the listener to decide.

Erik

[DizRotus]

Whats best for you is what sounds the best to you and is affordable to you, period! This holds true whether comparing capacitors, cables, amps or speakers. Often what sounds the best is more expensive than what is perceived as sounding inferior, but not always.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />

Klipsch fanciers should know better than to fall into the trap that more costly equates with higher quality. That is the very argument used by the high end audio salons to relegate horns in general, Klipsch in particular, to secondor worseclass status.

Many here have experienced the attributes of planar speakers, electrostatics, etc. (high end versions of which can be very expensive and require expensive amplification) only to choose horn loaded speakers. If youre objective and sensible enough to ignore the snobs when expressing a preference for Klipsch, why fall victim to blind snob appeal when it comes to capacitors, etc.?

That being said, the beauty of tweaking and DIY is that it makes sense for an individual to spend more on items like capacitors, if it produces a noticeableor even perceivedimprovement. Buying a boutique cap that is five times the cost of a more plebian variety makes sense for the individual, but it would be commercial suicide for a manufacturer, unless the improvement justified the cost difference. Thus the origin of PWKs often repeated comment about, .a dimes worth of difference.

[Erik Mandaville]

Meagin:

This topic has gone on for years.

If this is something that would be helpful to you, I'll see if there is room on the board I used for the type 'As' I made for a GE 2uf motor run oil and a Hovland Musicap of the same value. A couple of years ago, another forum member sent me the Hovlands as a gift for some work I had done for him, and I put them in my preamp. I'm not using the preamp now, so can use that cap in the crossovers.

I'll install a switch to enable switching between the Solen, the GE, and the Hovland. You can borrow these for awhile if you would like. I have enough parts around here to make another very doable network in the meantime.

Erik

[Erik Mandaville]

Update:

I'm sending my preamp to the person who purchased the Baldwin amp. The gain of the Baldwin is adequate but not high, and can use a preamp in front of. He could use one, and I'm not using this one right now.

I'll get a couple of Hovlands from Madisound if you think you might like to try this variable type 'A' network.

Erik

[jwc]

"Now back to caps. With my little testing experience, I really haven't noticed that the Solen fastcaps are any disapointment in the mid filter. Where they don't work as well is in the tweeter filter."

I read that and it just makes my head hurt! No, they're not "a disappointment" -- they're fine, they're O.K., they get the job done. The questions are, 1) is there something that works/sounds better, 2) If there is something better, should I use it?

Look at what you just wrote and think: If they don't "work as well" as something else in the tweeter circuit, why would they work as well as something else at the primary position?

Dean. I'm not seeing that you are disagreeing with me. I can't answer your last question as this is the question I ask myself. I notice a difference in the tweeter filter but don't notice as much of a difference when used as the "primary position". I have no technical explanation for it. Just again, my little testing experience and my observation.

Sorry I hurt your head.

jc

[cjgeraci]

He will be exchanging them and will tell me what difference he hears.

Dean said: "I already know the outcome. There are 3 people out there who's ALKs I upgraded by replacing the 39+1 Solen/Harmony combination with two 20uF Auricaps. Email responses after the upgrades bordered on the emotional. Since I had done it myself to my ALKs, I actually wasn't all that surprised. Everything passes through that primary position -- it's the most important cap in the circuit. If I'm wrong with my prediction, I'll let you guys decide my punishment.:)"

Being a proud owner of ALKs with two Auricaps in those slots, Dean already knows my take - and yes, it does border on the emotional.

Yes, it was expensive. Yes, it was worth it. Sheltie Dave can also vouch for the remarkable sound since he has heard my Belles on a number of occasions.

Any of those who are familiar with the ALK, Sr. network - if you come anywhere near St. Louis, MO - an open invitation to hear my Belles. There is a difference.

Good decision to offer those upgraded caps, Al.

Carl.