Chipp4 Posted November 6, 2001 Author Share Posted November 6, 2001 TV, I hope I don't appear snooty but Mackie and Samson equipment is generally considered KMART type stuff compared to Crown, QSC, Crest etc. Maybe I'm off base but I would think some people might get the wrong idea about SVS when they see some of the brands you pair up with the speakers (like that $179 eq). I think the Crown way would be good and by HT standards the amps are fairly cheap (especially considering power output). One last question of you, I want to go with the new Lexicon MC12 processor and it has 3 sub outputs Left, Right, and Low Effects. Would I be losing anything going with the 4 Ultra setup (2 Left, 2 Right) and not using Low Effects output? This would save the money for another amp and subs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheEAR Posted November 6, 2001 Share Posted November 6, 2001 Correction Samson is KMART if you compare it to Bryston,Classe,Celeste,Krell,Boulder and YBA.Oh year forgot Jeff Rowland and Goldmund Sorry And then true blue KMART amps are found in mass market recievers like rock bottom priced Kenwood,Pioneer and AIWA recievers.True garbage good for the dumpster. The Samson amp is ok to drive a sub,I would never use it to drive my Dynaudios. TheEAR(s) Now theears Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chipp4 Posted November 7, 2001 Author Share Posted November 7, 2001 The Ear, Do you think the dampening factor rating of a power amp is an important factor? You mentioned how the Bryston Amps truely improved bass performance from speakers and I see the Crown Reference series amps have a dampening factor of 30,000 which I have never seen any amp with numbers anywhere close to that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray Garrison Posted November 7, 2001 Share Posted November 7, 2001 Damping factor is simply another way of stating output impedence. The Crown amp has a very, very low output impedence. If EVERYTHING ELSE were the same, and two amps had different output impedences, you'd expect the one with the lower value to do a better job of damping the back EMF of the speaker's woofer, which would give you better controlled bass. However, everything else is NEVER the same. There are many other factors which are, collectively, of greater importance than damping factor. Just by way of example, the Pass Labs X1000 monster amp, which has gotten nothing but steller reviews by everyone who's used it (at least those whose comments I've read) has a relatively high damping factor of 60. Put a pair of X1000s and a Crown Macro Reference in the same system, and I think you'd find the Pass amp would make the Crown amp sound rather ugly by comparison. ------------------ Music is art Audio is engineering Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TVodhanel Posted November 7, 2001 Share Posted November 7, 2001 I think the perception of samson=kmart is common. I also think it's based much more on the country club(price=quality)mentality than any actual performance issues involved. I appreciate the concern...but as we close in on 1500 subs shipped in the first 18 months or so...it seems folks realize good amp power is good amp power...even if it's from *kmart* It might also be worth mentioning...with a *fidek* amp(one commonly thought of as being well under the samson on the food chain)...our dual ($1199)20-39cs package was verified to have about the same amount of clean output as 3 HGS15s($7500) in the bass intensive 25-63hz range.Pretty nameplates are cool...I'd rather be associated with verified performance though As far as the 4 CS_Ultras on the BE feature. That could work...and very well. But a lot will depend on your room size and layout of the seating positions. TV Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boa12 Posted November 7, 2001 Share Posted November 7, 2001 tv, that "country club" perception of price=quality is a good example of a giffin good from microeconomic theory. a giffin good actually defies the logic of higher price=less quantity demanded or lower price=more quantity demanded. guess that's why economic principles are merely theory ------------------ My Home Systems Page Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheEAR Posted November 7, 2001 Share Posted November 7, 2001 Chipp, Damping factor is not the only thing an amp must posess to be a great amp.Sure the Crown Macro Reference are no dumpster bin amps. But as Ray said they would pale in comparision in any A/B test against a pair of X1000 Pass monoblocks.Well maybe not if driving subs(the Macro Reference would probably best the X1000 here)as for the overalll sound quality the X1000 would take the Crown out to deep sea and drown the Crown. Ray, I agree 100% with you,its not only a nameplate of looks that you buy when you buy a Bryston,Pass,Krell, Boulder or Celeste.You buy better built quality,better design and this gives better sound in the end. To drive subs you dont need a Krell or Boulder,a Crown or Samson will do just fine.Here I agree with TV. TV, As I said for subwoofer use a Samson is plenty,but for two channel stereo(mains)the Samson is not in the same league as a Bryston.Better built,better design,more durable,better warranty and sound quality that bests some High-End brands!And nobody can best the Bryston 20 year warranty(how long is the warranty on the Samson?).Bryston amps are proven,in studios,on the pro circuit and in true hi-fi systems world wide. And Bryston amps are NOT overpriced(for what you get). TheEAR(s) Now theears Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TVodhanel Posted November 8, 2001 Share Posted November 8, 2001 >>>As I said for subwoofer use a Samson is plenty,but for two channel stereo(mains)the Samson is not in the same league as a Bryston.Better built,better design,more durable,better warranty and sound quality that bests some High-End brands!And nobody can best the Bryston 20 year warranty(how long is the warranty on the Samson?)<<< Ok, for 10x the cost, you get the extended warranty. I'd rather have a 90% refund now, and take my chances with the electonics down the road...different strokes. TV Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheEAR Posted November 8, 2001 Share Posted November 8, 2001 "Ok, for 10x the cost, you get the extended warranty. I'd rather have a 90% refund now, and take my chances with the electonics down the road...different strokes." Much more then a 20 year warranty(only 3 for the Samson!?).The Bryston does not generate the noise the fans in the Samson do.The Bryston at 10 x the cost is a 14B-ST an amp with much more power and quality. I know amps are not all specs,but specs dont lie,the Bryston takes the Samson to the cleaners. Better power supply,better built,less noisy(both physical fan noise and output). There is no way anyone will take a Samson over a Bryston if they want better sound and have the green to pay.Unless they have hearing damage,or simply want impressive wattage for the dollar. I heard several pro amps(used on main speakers,not just as BADABOOM sub amplifiers)and I am not inpressed.Only a few from Crown do the trick. To end this I would dare anyone to compare the Samson S1000 against a Bryston 4B-ST(not the 14B-ST,the slaughter would be too disturbing )on two channel stereo and as a sub amp(driving passive subs like TV's own SVS Ultras). Only the amps would speak. TheEAR(s) Now theears Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TVodhanel Posted November 8, 2001 Share Posted November 8, 2001 I agree, if whisper quiet fans would be a concern...there's certianly other options to consider...including spending 10x as much for a fanless amp. TV Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J Tanman Posted November 8, 2001 Share Posted November 8, 2001 Just out of curiousity, TV, what amp are you using to drive your main speakers (KLF 30s if I'm not mistaken)? I like your cost-effectiveness mentality. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avman Posted November 8, 2001 Share Posted November 8, 2001 it's going to be the rsw-15 for me! i 'field-tested' (read that borrowed) an energy t-o-l sub (12") to see what effect it would have w/the excellent bass management system in my 777es receiver. at low to mid-high vol. the sub made a dramatic diff. and my 5 speakers are all pretty heavy bass hitters, especially the 30's. at this point i decided for both ht AND music a sub w/excellent performance characteristics,ie:'teens'performance at high spls, would be the ticket, and the rsw-15 has the specs, plus i get to keep my speakers all klipsch w/o imho, sacrificing performance. avman. ------------------ 1-pair klf 30's c-7 center ksps-6 surrounds sony strda-777ES receiver upgraded to v.2.02 including virtual matrix 6.1 sony playstation 2 dishnetwork model 7200 dishplayer satellite receiver/digital bitstream recorder pioneer dvd player sharp 32"tv and sharp xv-z1u lcd projector panamax max dbs+5 surge protector/power conditioner monster cable interconnects/12 gua.speaker wire a 'teens' sub coming!(RSW-15 LOOKIN'GOOD!) KLIPSCH-So Good It Hz! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TVodhanel Posted November 8, 2001 Share Posted November 8, 2001 >>>Just out of curiousity, TV, what amp are you using to drive your main speakers (KLF 30s if I'm not mistaken)? I like your cost-effectiveness mentality.<<< I use an old kenwood krx1000 receiver. it has main ins/preouts for all 5 channels.(old alesis powers the side surrounds). KLF30/C7/1.1/3.1 TV Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheEAR Posted November 8, 2001 Share Posted November 8, 2001 TV you only use a reciever to power the KLF-30's! OK Truth is the KLF-30's dont need many watts to get to ear tearing levels.The better amps will make them sound better,tubes work charms with the large Klipsch. TheEAR(s) Now theears Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boa12 Posted November 9, 2001 Share Posted November 9, 2001 all right some vindication for my old kenwood kr-9600. yea it's a receiver & yea it's a kenwood, but i'd put this monster up against many o' the newer power amps out there. great circuitry & quality that's hard to find anymore. got it new for around $400 in '75 & it's still poundin w/ only a few minor repairs in it's 25 yrs+ years of service. ------------------ My Home Systems Page Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheEAR Posted November 9, 2001 Share Posted November 9, 2001 Many of the newer power amps! Are you sure Boa? How about it then,against... Bryston 4B-ST,8B-ST,14B-ST Celeste 4070,4150,4250,MOON W3,W5 and W10's Krell KAS50,100,200 and 300,FPB200,300 and 600( ) ATI 1505,2505 CinePro(the whole range) I hear TV around here,I know he is lurking. For my defense I can say your subs are super bargains. TheEAR(s) Now theears Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boa12 Posted November 9, 2001 Share Posted November 9, 2001 ok ears u asked for it now as here are the features/ specs on this 50+ lbs king o' the 70s. also it has a perfect 5-star rating on audioreview. 160WX2, .009% distortion FEATURES (not found on Bryston nor Krell) 1. Front end features ultra-sensitive 2-stage RF amplification, 3 Dual Gate MOS FET circuitry and 5-gang variable capacitor. 2. 8-element Ceramic Filter and low distortion Quadrature Discrimi-nator ensure high IF selectivity. 3. Excellent stereo separation is due to superior Phase-Lock-Loop (PLL) circuitry. 4. Independent Low Pass Filters are made available in both Left and Right Channels. High stability output circuitry is due to Operational Amp. 5. Independent Equalizer Amplifiers are built in for Phono 1 and Phono 2. 6. Buffer Amp features output selector control which guarantees stable operation. 7. Triple Tone Control incorporates Tone Defeat (Skip Circuit). 8. Final Power Output Stages employ the reliable Parallel Push-Pull Circuitry which used Darlington ICs. 9. Dual Power Supply System has practically eliminated Dynamic Crosstalk. 10. Reliable Protection Circuits are made available independently for both Left and Right channels. 1 1. Unique sound injection system permits microphone mixing with other program source. 1 2. Sturdy Power Meter enables checking large dynamic power. 1 3. 2-Way Signal Meter permits reading FM Deviation Level. 1 4. Other Features include: * 2-step Loudness Control * Built-in De-emphasis to match any Dolbyized FM broadcasts. * 20 dB Attenuation Control * Low Filter, High Filter * FM Muting * Connecting Terminals for three pairs of speakers. * Selector Indicator * FM DET OUT * Wide dial scale and smooth flywheel-action Tuning Knob for easy tuning. * Mode Selector * Speaker Indicator * Handsomely Styled Handles or Wood Case ------------------ My Home Systems Page Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TVodhanel Posted November 9, 2001 Share Posted November 9, 2001 Amps all sound the same to me...assuming I'm not pushing them into clipping. If I wanted to add a bunch of distortion to my source material(like tubes amps do to fool the golden ears)...I could rig up a vari-distortion input device myself....no thanks. TV Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seb Posted November 9, 2001 Share Posted November 9, 2001 interesting TV... so you're saying, as long as an amp has enough power reserves, it should sound the same whether it's a cheap receiver or a high-end exotic amp? have you actually tried both? i assume you have, just want to check... because if that's the case, then I'm buying rf-7s right now without feeling the guilt of using them with a "lowly" (for some people here, i.e. THEEARS) Sony str-db830 receiver... please answer and make my day! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TVodhanel Posted November 9, 2001 Share Posted November 9, 2001 >>>interesting TV... so you're saying, as long as an amp has enough power reserves, it should sound the same whether it's a cheap receiver or a high-end exotic amp? have you actually tried both? i assume you have, just want to check. because if that's the case, then I'm buying rf-7s right now without feeling the guilt of using them with a "lowly" (for some people here, i.e. THEEARS) Sony str-db830 receiver... please answer and make my day!<<< All the evidence I've seen indicates all well designed SS(solid state)amps driven within normal operating limits(not clipping for instance) will have no audible differences. My own experiences parallel this evidence. When there have been audible differences detected in SS amps...it's always been traced back to a simple freq response issue(that's why I said "well designed"...or a minor variation in the output levels during the test.(even a fraction of a dB increase will tend to be *heard* as a wider soundstage,deeper imaging...blah,blah,blah.) TV Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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