Seb Posted November 9, 2001 Share Posted November 9, 2001 in your opinion, is the str-db830 well-designed? it's between the regular crappy sony line and the ES line, but borrows much more from the ES design and construction. i'd like other opinions too. i'm not going to buy the RF-7s or KLF-20s if I have to upgrade my amplification as well. I can bear to spend 1,500$ but not more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TVodhanel Posted November 9, 2001 Share Posted November 9, 2001 >>>in your opinion, is the str-db830 well-designed? it's between the regular crappy sony line and the ES line, but borrows much more from the ES design and construction.<<< I havent seen anything on it really. As long as the FR measures flat...it should be fine...esp with super efficient speakers like Klipsch. >>>i'd like other opinions too. i'm not going to buy the RF-7s or KLF-20s if I have to upgrade my amplification as well. I can bear to spend 1,500$ but not more.<<< I don't see any need to upgrade the wattage at all. Remember the roots of Klipsch...Paul Klipsch. This is the guy who used to walk around the audio shows wearing a button that said "BS!" on it.(in reference to the golden ear claims in some circles). He also said(paraphrasing)..."if you can hear a difference,but can't measure a difference...you're measuring the wrong thing!" he's in my cool book... TV Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheEAR Posted November 9, 2001 Share Posted November 9, 2001 Boa, 0.000000000000000000009 % distortion,big freaking deal like this makes an amp! LOL Ask true amp master designers like Nelson Pass,Dan Dagostino or Bob Carver.Distortion is but a part of the math.Pass amps have much higher distortion and they beat the living hell outta the techie(good specs,on paper)apms. My Celsete(any Celeste power amp)outperforms this reciever(any reciever).Unless one is...uh..deaf...or does not know what quality and accuracy is. Seb, Seb all SS amps sound the same! HA HA HA HA sure they do.SURE Most amps are far from well designed,and many cant even drive 4 Ohms loads too well.Great amps should drive 2 Ohms loads NON stop all cheannels(besides monoblocks) driven,at full rated output. Sure I will hear,but who in hell needs a 2 Ohms drive capability? I know all amps dont sound the same,and few are well designed. TV, Amps sound the same!? Sure when you use BADA BING speakers like the KLF.LOL I am sorry to hurt some on this board but the fact is the KLF and even the Reference series Klipsches are colored speakers.They are very dynamic,need few watts to reach realistic levels.But they dont even touch the natural(read realistic) sound you can hear from such speakers as Dynaudio Contour and Confidence series,NOT even close. The speakers color the sound too much to hear the sometimes very subtle variations when changing amps. And there are even more detailed and coloration free speakers.I am talking about nOrh.Yes nOrh,their nOrh 9.0 is the best bargain in the monitor speaker world. With its solid granite cabinet(cone shaped)the cabinet wall vibration is almost eliminated.No human can hear it(unless they have a very busy imagination,and take some illegal powders).The drivers are the superb Scan Speak REVELATORS(both tweeter and midbass). With the nOrh 9.0 you can hear the changes amps bring. I will not even debate this with those who use BADA BING speakers.The nOrh 9.0 is a stealth figher,precision and finesse.The KLF are like a B-52 bomber,BIG BOOM. So TV you may convince some newbies here,NOT me.And others know what I know.They heard the changes made by amps,preamps and other components. What I agree with is cables(speaker cables that is)are not worth big $$$.Since they help the least(if you have some quality speaker wire),the exotic cables bring more of a "imagined" improvement. TheEAR(s) Now theears Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheEAR Posted November 9, 2001 Share Posted November 9, 2001 TV, On a good note now,your SVS Ultras make a killer combination with the nOrh 9.0!This combo is probably the best deal in the AUDIO WORLD! Both you(SVS)and nOrh sell direct to the customer.And both give SUPERLATIVE value. Next year its SVS and nOrh time. To all audiophiles,check out the nOrh 9.0 and SVS Ultra combination.Its audio nirvana all below 5.5 grand. TheEAR(s) Now theears Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boa12 Posted November 10, 2001 Share Posted November 10, 2001 yea ears well let me tell you something about coloring. most of that comes from between YOUR ears. LOL ------------------ My Home Systems Page Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TVodhanel Posted November 10, 2001 Share Posted November 10, 2001 I'm not really trying to convince *newbies* of anything. If they felt the need, they could spend a little time researching the subject and come across a bunch of tests comparing <$99 receivers to $$$ amps. There's always the same claims...HUGE differences and such. But all the test results show no one has picked one SS amp from another when the FR and levels are matched. On one side you have a lot of documented data gathered from tests using repeatable methods. On the other side you have a lot of golden eared/anecdotal claims with zero real evidence... ...remember Paul Klipsch... TV Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avman Posted November 10, 2001 Share Posted November 10, 2001 hey seb! i wouldn't worry about replacing your receiver,it will drive the klipsches to high spl's. focus on the bass management setup, i'd set it to small all 5 speakers, and you can roll off to the sub as low as 40Hz. THEEARS-i see all this impressive equipment, and i'm sure it sounds great...let me say this-when i get home, and i listen to my music and my movies in my house in my theater room, i'm thoroughly pleased at the performance of all of my equipment, it never fails to impress others, it usually suprises me at how well it performs and i find myself standing to applaud some dvd concert, or 'ducking under the couch' when the bullets fly. what i'm saying is when i get my rsw-15, I'M DONE! fin,finito, through buying speakers,call it a day,put up the horses-well you get the idea...i'm completely renovating my ht room, will post pix when done, and while it is costing a few $$'s, i'm getting alot of return for the $, and that's what i call VALUE! my ht system has reached a level of performance that exceeds my expectations, and i beleive there comes a point of diminishing returns vs. $ spent. i love my klipsch-my 'kids' and am thankful they exist-because they bring me pleasure, they don't fail to suprise me with how great they sound, they reach me at a 'spiritual'level, and evoke a variety of emotions and feelings depending on my mood/source material...now for a sacd player... avman. ------------------ 1-pair klf 30's c-7 center ksps-6 surrounds sony strda-777ES receiver upgraded to v.2.02 including virtual matrix 6.1 sony playstation 2 dishnetwork model 7200 dishplayer satellite receiver/digital bitstream recorder pioneer dvd player sharp 32"tv and sharp xv-z1u lcd projector panamax max dbs+5 surge protector/power conditioner monster cable interconnects/12 gua.speaker wire a 'teens' sub coming!(RSW-15 LOOKIN'GOOD!) KLIPSCH-So Good It Hz! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DEAM Posted November 10, 2001 Share Posted November 10, 2001 HOLY COW LOL MAN THIS GUY IS A LOANER YOU CAN TELL HE HAS (0 ) FREINDS GET SOME HELP TRY SOME PROZAC .s> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheEAR Posted November 10, 2001 Share Posted November 10, 2001 DEAM, As constructive as ever! TV, I dont buy this,SS amps sound the same. LOL Then what do you say to those who claim all subs sound the same.Hey 30Hz is 30Hz right.NOT I think TVyou will agree your SVS Ultra outperforms the Velodyne HGS18 at matched level.I think so,many do too.I read HornEd and he prefers the Ultras too!All subs are not created equal and all amps are NOT created equal.Period. TheEAR(s) Now theears Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TVodhanel Posted November 10, 2001 Share Posted November 10, 2001 >>>I think TVyou will agree your SVS Ultra outperforms the Velodyne HGS18 at matched level.<<< It might, I never tried that. But this example really has very little to do with the topic that was being discussed. >>>I think so,many do too.I read HornEd and he prefers the Ultras too!All subs are not created equal and all amps are NOT created equal.Period.<<< I agree. TV Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
t-man Posted November 10, 2001 Share Posted November 10, 2001 Hey guys, this is really interesting. TV, Just to clarify your point, do you think that a nice external EQ could level the playing field of all these various amps and price ranges? Perhaps the Bryston and Celeste amps EAR refers to sound so great because they don't have a flat FR. Rather, they sort of have a boost in the low frequency range. EAR has referred to this as "grip", I believe. Could any amp produce the same "grip" that the celeste or Bryston has with a properly calibrated EQ (assuming wattage and such are all equal)? T-man ------------------ KG 5.5 (mains) KG 2.2v (center) KLF-C7 (center in storage) KG 1 (rears) KSW-12 (sub) Denon AVR 681/1601 Toshiba SD-3109 DVD Kenwood LVD700 LD Sony CD changer Sony 27" Trinitron Sony PLX I Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheEAR Posted November 11, 2001 Share Posted November 11, 2001 Grip has nothing to to with any EQ.Take one of the mas market recievers and apply the boost(where needed)to compensate for lesser bass for example.Any bass control the pitty amp had will be even worse. This is why so many speakers are damaged with poor amps.The peeps try to compensate for the amp shortcomings with EQ or tone controls.Results vary from exagerated to damaged speakers. This starts to get hilarious. An EQ to compensate for the lack of good output stage and power supply! WOW LOL An EQ will not transform $99 amp into a 5K amp.If some want to belive this then plese do.And dwarves do exist you know,as well as Santa and Mickey Mouse. Its like to say a inexpensive all in one Sony system can sound as good as a Dynaudio system,just by using some EQ!The sound may be closer yes,but detail,midrange purity and many other aspects will not even be close. Let me take my alarm clock radio and apply the EQ,maybe I will get SVS Ultra bass. LOL TheEAR(s) Now theears Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seb Posted November 11, 2001 Share Posted November 11, 2001 THEEARS, sarcasm is cool, but you might want to try to stop taking somebody's argument or intervention to the extreme... I don't think T-Man ever thought or implied that you could get a $99 amp to sound the same as the top-dollar ones simply by using EQ. he only raised a simple question, could an EQ compensate for the Freq. Resp. of an amp to make it sound better, whether that means more accurate or having a slight boost in different areas of the spectre. Also, THEEARS, I think you are making a moot point: there is a reason why certain people (like most, if not all, people on this board) prefer Klipsch and others not. Klipsch speakers do color the sound, as do most other speakers. Maybe they are BADA BING, I'd probably use the term KA BLAMO instead, but the fact is, whatever they are, they sound good. They have impact and are very efficient, and as you said yourself, render the use of expensive, exotic amps quite useless. Which is GOOD. No, actually, it's GREAT. It means that people like me can have the kind of sound they really want at a price they can afford (I'm sounding like an infomercial right now...). Accurate shmaccurate. I don't give a flying rat's *** what's accurate, I want sound that will PLEASE me and my ears. Sounds of punches never shook any room, well they shake mine and while it's totally inaccurate, it serves what, in the end, is the ultimate purpose of any sound system, it makes me happy and pleases my ears. I will now step down from the soap box. /edit/ oh, and yes, THEEARS, I would really like to know why anyone, especially the Klipsch users on this board, would need full power 2 ohm amplification? i know ohmage (or resistance or whatever it's called) varies with frequency with most speakers, but by that much? no way. and with Klipsch speakers, the beauty of it all is that you don't need all that much power to get plenty of SPL. This message has been edited by Seb on 11-11-2001 at 12:49 AM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheEAR Posted November 11, 2001 Share Posted November 11, 2001 Seb, I did not post the previous repply to attack T-man. I dont question Klipsch speakers(I own a good roomfull),I like the Klipsch sound myself.Yes Klipsch are easy to drive,and no you dont need even 4 Ohm drive capability from the amp to drive Klipsch.The doubling of power was posted in response to some claims made about amps. TheEAR(s) Now theears Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TVodhanel Posted November 11, 2001 Share Posted November 11, 2001 all speakers alter the (input signal)sound,and even more so...the room environment they are placed in. To argue speaker preference(or what *you* consider revealing compared to what I consider revealing) is to argue over what our favorite color is...has nothing to do with the topic(or what the topic was at the point speaker *accuracy* was introduced). If anyone has access to issue 26 of the AUDIO CRITIC, there's two invaluable pieces in there. 1)the ten biggest lies on audio which addresses many of the anecdotal tales people often try to pass off as real evidence(even in this thread) 2)It never gets any better(By Tom Nousaine ~one of the most honored AES men in the country btw). he specifically talks about amps,cable and wiring in the piece...MUST READING(imo) for anyone more interested in the facts than the latest golden ear claims. >>>TV, Just to clarify your point, do you think that a nice external EQ could level the playing field of all these various amps and price ranges?<<< No,sorry if my text somehow came off like that? All WELL DESIGNED(meaning flat response...or variations <0.1dB) amps that aren't driven past their intended operating limits(low ohm load or clipping). If you have a 50w amp and a 500w amp...there's a good chance the 500w amp is going to sound better on demanding source material and/or demanding speakers(like planers for instance). I have no idea what *grip* is...but if it's real it can be measured. TV Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheEAR Posted November 12, 2001 Share Posted November 12, 2001 TV, Good "grip" or control in the bass(sub bass as well) comes with high current amplifiers.This is why the large Boulder,Krell,Bryston,Pilnus(name them)amps have better percieved bass,better control on the bass drivers.Its not imagination,its real. And control is sometimes put in numbers,damping for example is one.Not always,one cannot only look at damping and claim the amp is a champ in bass.Many other factors pile up to form a whole here. Just to test the so called"all amps sound the same"claim,I used my Denon 5800 with Klipsch RF-7's and Dynaudio 3.3's today.And MOON W5(Celeste or SimAudio if you prefer) The Denon performed very well with the Klipsch,the Klipsch are easy loads and need only a very few watts to knock you out.The bass was quite good,the upper range nice,a bit edgy.Just a bit(the source is NOT to blame) So you know I used the same source (Sony SCD-1) and cables,both speaker and interconects...Monster M1000 and Monster M Series 2.2 speaker cables. When I switched to the Celeste MOON W5 the bass improved(not by much)and the most gain was in the upper end.Less agressive. In this case I agree the more expensive gear would not be worth the extra expense with most. Now the Dynaudio Contour 3.3. For this test I used the Denon 5800 to drive the Dynes,good sound quality overall no complaints.This until I again went back to the Celeste MOON W5.The W5 made the Dynes gain bass,the sound was cleaner.The Contour 3.3 exposed the Denon weakneses(when compared to the MOON W5). Amps do not sound the same,unless the design and parts are identical.Speakers do not sound the same unless the design and parts are again identical.A class H or BASH amp cannot match a pure Class A amp(besdes sub use)in quality and signal purity. However most who dont have speakers like the Dynaudio(and other tough to drive)will not need the beefy amps. All sound the same!? Uh whatever TheEAR(s) Now theears Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike stehr Posted November 12, 2001 Share Posted November 12, 2001 Why do folks talk about how one amp 'sounds' different or better from others? I realize a Cheap consumer grade amp will 'sound' worse than exotic top dollar amp due to superior design and parts. But in theory, Wouldn't the perfect amp reproduce and amplify the source material without any artifacts from itself at all? And as efficient as possible? So a guy can't say this amp 'sounds' better than that amp, one would say that this amp reproduced the source material as original as possible, as compared to amp 'B' etc.... I think sub frequency's are a little more forgiving when it comes to audible distortion. (Or just not as easy to hear.) THANX! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheEAR Posted November 12, 2001 Share Posted November 12, 2001 Mike, No problems with what you said,I agree. TheEAR(s) Now theears Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
t-man Posted November 12, 2001 Share Posted November 12, 2001 So how does one determine how flat the FR is of a given amplifier. When I see 20-20K Hz +/-3dB that means little to me, because there could be up to a 6 dB difference between some frequencies, and I don't know which of the frequencies are high and which are low (in dB). Thanks, T-man ------------------ KG 5.5 (mains) KG 2.2v (center) KLF-C7 (center in storage) KG 1 (rears) KSW-12 (sub) Denon AVR 681/1601 Toshiba SD-3109 DVD Kenwood LVD700 LD Sony CD changer Sony 27" Trinitron Sony PLX I Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheEAR Posted November 12, 2001 Share Posted November 12, 2001 T-man, In general a good amp will be very flat from 20Hz to 20KHz more like +/- 0.5dB or better. The well designed amps can drive low impedance loads and this also gives them the extra bass punch,since in the bass most speakers dip below the specified 4 or 8 Ohms. Good current capabilities are also very welcome. Unless an amp is matched with the speaker very well the +/- 0.5dB will not hold.Now you can end up with +/-3dB or more(depending on speakers). TheEAR(s) Now theears Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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