Capacitor experiences?

[popbumper]

All you cap gurus:

I primarily use Kimber Kaps in my networks, as suggested by Dean (have also used Auricaps and Solens), and have been quite pleased with the quality of the sound. My question is, how many of you have used Hovland Musicaps, and even more importantly, Mundorf Silver and oil? I read a site by a man in (Scandinavia?) named "Tony Gee", who does capacitor listening sessions and reports his findings. The Mundorfs appear particularly intersting; from their price, I would >hope< there would be an appreciable "increase" in sonic quality, though I realize there is not often a linearity between price and quality. At this point, I really do want to see if I can eke anything else out of my networks, though I WOULD be surprised if I could.

Can anyone comment? Like everyone else, always looking for improvement. Thanks!

Chris

[r.cherry]

the only Kimber I have is a .45...

no hablo cap

sorry i couldn't resist[6]

[Hardhead]

This may not be what you want to hear, but the only way to tell what a particular capacitor will REALLY sound like to you in your system is to try one yourself and see how you like it. Like anyone else, I can tell you the differences I think I hear with certain capacitors in my system, but that may not help you much, since everyone else's system, room, taste, hearing, are different from yours. After paying your good money, you may wind up with a system that sounds best to me or someone else but not to you.

It's not likely that you'll guess right out of the blue the capacitor that sounds best to you, even if you hear it on someone else's system--again, different system, room, etc., especially considering the differing, and probably conflicting, opinions you most likely will receive. However, one thing you can do to make sure you wind up with what you like is to buy one of each of a couple or a few brands or types that seem most suitable to you and install them one at a time and see how they sound to you. Whichever one sounds the best, assuming one does, is the one you should choose. A systematic audition may appear to cost more than just buying something based on your best guess, but it gives you the best chance of finding what you like.

Good luck with it.

[PrestonTom]

".....Can anyone comment? Like everyone else, always looking for improvement. Thanks!...."

Chris,

The caps you are using are new. Th crossover design will not be altered. Putting in very expensive caps will provide next to nothing.

If you are looking to improve the sound, then spend some time & effort (not necessarily a ton of money) on treating the room. This can be as simple as trying the speaker and listening chair in various locations all the way to providing some absorbtion/diffusion/bass trapping. These will produce real differences.

It takes some homework however. Depending on your background, you may need to get educated about room acoustics ahead of time. There is plenty of info on the web.

I am not trying to be cynical. It is just that I get frustrated and angry about these companies that are making big bucks on these "audiophile" parts.

The biggest differences you will see come from the way the speaker interacts with the room. This can be modified. Start there.

Good luck,

-Tom

[Deang]

Tom, I always appreciate your informative and well thought out posts, but I can't figure out why you've put up such a brick wall on this one. I can honestly say to you that they make a bigger difference than you think. The capacitors in Klipsch networks have relatively small values, so it's not really that expensive to recap a network with some good polypropylenes. Yes, the audiophile branding seems silly, but if you price out something like Vishay or Cornell Dublier metallized polypropylenes out of the Mouser catalog you'll find they are all in the same ballpark. Film and tin foil types like the Hovland and AudioCap PPT Theta can't even bought in non-audiophile brands unless you buy 50 or more. This has been discussed at length before, and I'm still waiting for someone to point me to a non-audiophile film and tin foil type that can be bought in small quantities. I would like to say that if you haven't personally changed out the capacitors in your networks, it's not fair or right for you to tell people "it makes no difference".

Room treatments make a big difference, but they can't bring to the table what great parts do.

[Deang]

Chris, I haven't tried the Mundorfs, but I use V-cap OIMP in my personal networks. They have a signature similiar to the GE motor runs, but sound cleaner to me.

[chops]

Chris, I haven't tried the Mundorfs, but I use V-cap OIMP in my personal networks. They have a signature similiar to the GE motor runs, but sound cleaner to me.

Just curious, in what way do the V-caps sound cleaner over the GE's?

[popbumper]

Thanks guys, I do enjoy the inputs and variety of information here. I think I will just "take the dive" and see what I come up with; it's fun to experiment.

Chris

[meagain]

You know what would be nice? If the lead ends on these things could be fashioned in such a way that one can just plug/unplug them for swapping.

[Deang]

Why don't you learn how to build these things? It's interesting enough to you that you would probably enjoy it.

[3dzapper]

A comparison of V-Caps, SoniCaps and Multicaps in a one element xover:

"Conclusion: Of the three capacitors evaluated, the Sonicap - in this application - provides the best clarity, resolution, transparency, and enjoyment. I have used the Gen I Sonicaps now for over two years, and never feel that they are a weak link in my audio system. Happy listening."

http://www.10audio.com/sonicap_oimp_multicap.htm

The emphasis in the above paragraph is the authors and says it all. Like Tom says (paraphrased), "you gotta buy 'em and try 'em".

[PrestonTom]

Tom, I always appreciate your informative and well thought out posts, but I can't figure out why you've put up such a brick wall on this one. I can honestly say to you that they make a bigger difference than you think. The capacitors in Klipsch networks have relatively small values, so it's not really that expensive to recap a network with some good polypropylenes. Yes, the audiophile branding seems silly, but if you price out something like Vishay or Cornell Dublier metallized polypropylenes out of the Mouser catalog you'll find they are all in the same ballpark. Film and tin foil types like the Hovland and AudioCap PPT Theta can't even bought in non-audiophile brands unless you buy 50 or more. This has been discussed at length before, and I'm still waiting for someone to point me to a non-audiophile film and tin foil type that can be bought in small quantities. I would like to say that if you haven't personally changed out the capacitors in your networks, it's not fair or right for you to tell people "it makes no difference".

Room treatments make a big difference, but they can't bring to the table what great parts do.

Dean, we are probably not disagreeing.

First, the person says he has already upgraded the caps. So we are not comparing worn out caps to new caps. Second, he is not trying a new design. So we are not comparing crossover X vs crossover Y, Third, he is not using cheap caps, since he has already tried solen, auricap and kimbers. So we are not comapring cheap caps vs better caps.

His question was (as I understand it) would there be an appreciable improvement (difference) if he tried some very expensive caps. Note: 1) new caps to new caps, 2) crossover X to crossover X (no change), 3) Good caps to good caps. I can't imagine there would be much of a difference. I agree with you that there could be a change, and perhaps a big change, if you 1) are replacing bad caps, 2) changing crossover design, 3) moving from average to good caps.

I did not mean there would be "no difference", but any difference would be slight. The series resistance on new and decent caps is going to be fairly small. The caps are also going to be fairly linear in this range. As I understand it, they are not like inductors where you can have non-linearities (distortion) due to stauration etc.

The rest of my rant was simple: 1) The speaker interaction with the room can be huge and it, in turn, presents a number of possibilities to dramatically improve the sound, 2) I continue to be shocked by the prices on these audiphile products. If they cost so much, then the improvement should be comensurate.

Back to point 1, small anounts of money can yield big gains if one concentrates on solving the speaker-room interactions.

I supect we are on the same page. It is just a matter of degree.

Good Luck,

-Tom

PS; My Solen caps from Parts Express arrived the other day. I will refresh my type AAs next week (after the kitchen is painted, else my girlfriend will kill me).

[chops]

Why don't you learn how to build these things? It's interesting enough to you that you would probably enjoy it.

Who are you referring to?

I know that I've shown interest in the past, and I would enjoy it! [8-|]

[jorjen]

I took it that Dean was referring to Lisa.

[SET12]

Hi people,

I'm a new kid on the block I'm more of an amplifier builder than a speaker builder but I own a pair of Forte's, And I have built, an external crossover for them you can see the begining construction of them on this thread.

Forte 1 and inductor resistance

by reiver62

I have enjoyed them very much for the last 3 yrs they are a vast improvement over the tinker toy stock crossovers giving me a huge transparent soundstage with solid-state like bass from my 5.5 watt RMS transmitting tube amp a 572-10 output tube running in Class A2 source direct that is no preamp needed from a Sony ES X77 CD player.

I have the capability to change caps out in just minutes or even Inductors.

This is what I started with, I am using North Creek Inductors his 8 ga. and Hovland caps with Polysterene bypasses, Solen with a North Creek bypass.

I had a real hard time with the Hovlands they took forever to bloom and sweeten up they are very good now and very well made, But I will not purchase them again there are alot of very good caps out there.

I like film and foil types, I do like kimber but they don't do alot for me I like silver foil and oil I have used MIT alot and like them very much, I'm not fancy to the motor caps like GE or ASC they don't have the transparency for me.

I understand that Thiel loudspeakers use Polysterene's something I would like to try as I have heard huge dynamics from amplifiers using them they are really smooth maybe to smooth still I'd like to try some MIT's also the Mun-something ones that are very expensive there is alot to try and I feel its all very interesting, but one has to look at their needs and their electronics and decide what works for them I feel theres no one answer.

I started my project because I heard a friends ALK DIY version it was such an improvement I had to do mine only I had to do mine so that I could try many different flavors as I call them.

As for the Inductors from North Creek, Yes I have to agree with Al for the money they are wound a bit sloppy and I even had to trim excess glue from them and clean their appearance up a bit but I do like what they do for the Forte's bass just awesome as for the smaller inductor I will likely give a Litz a try although I am very happy with the performance of the North Creek.

The Forte's have never ceased to amaze me my living room is 14 ft x 18 ft I have them on the long wall 8ft apart about 18 in from the back wall toed in slightly my sound stage extends outside my side walls by many feet offten and very deep when a recording calls for depth layering is just outstanding as well some of this stuff is certainly due to my extrodinary amplifiers as I recently had a Jollita 100 watt/channel hybrid whose soundstage width was vertiually half of my tube amps and did not even come close in the presentation of imformation the bass was the shocker as the tube amp was far more extended. All this for a 1200$ total investment 3 yrs ago! I had a hard time listening to CD's before I put this system together now I am having a blast!

SET12

[SET12]

I went to Madisounds forum and checked out some opinions of the Hovaland caps, It was not good, there were complaints of of brightness, boxyness, splashyness I have to agree at least untill they break in and bloom and just sweeten up it took alot of hours, they are ok now but as I said I will not purchase them again. I am going to purchase the Mundorf caps.

[Deang]

Nice work. Looks like they were a pain in the butt to build.

I like the sound I get with just about any of the parts I use. The more I build and the more I listen, the more I think it all sounds very good, and what I prefer shifts back and forth like the wind. Sometimes I like a lot detail and clarity, sometimes I like a more laid back sound with some warmth. I'm prone to boredom, and regardless of how good it sounds, I prefer to change things up from time to time.

Before you drop money on the Mundorfs, you might want to consider the V-cap, which is very similar to the Mundorfs, but are hermetically sealed in brass canisters with soldered leads. In the simple circuits, I prefer the sound over anything else I've tried.

[Guest " "]

...before spending big bucks on better and the best caps....there is a point where replacing caps with the better and the best starts creeping up to the point of thinking about active crossovers...especially if you have additional amps.

[SET12]

I'll address the both of you here.

Thanks, For the build compliments, It took more time planning and buying than anything else. My brother is a Master Cabinet builder he made the plat forms to match the Forte's which were refinished as well to match one another.

Did you try the silver foil and oil mundorf or the gold and silver or just the film? I really like the Inductance cancellation of the Mundorf's The V-Cap construction looks excellant but did I gather it is just a Polyproplene film and oil?

I am strictly a foil person due to the current delivery of foil I liked the Teflon V-Cap construction and they are foil. Very good looking caps and have you tried any of these as well?

I usually get very bored with solid state electronics as I love harmonics and tubes just deliever the goods and great SET amps even more. But still a bad tube amp is no substitute for a good solid state. But I have a hard time listening to a horn speaker with any solid state to speak of.

As far as Active Crossovers I prefer to do it in my amps and stay away from extra gain stages in the signal path this is a lesson well learned by me as I use no preamp! Not every one can do it but under the right conditions it is absolutely awesomeI My preamp has been on the self collecting dust for yrs now its an expensive FET preamp and it is amazing how the sound can be choked by extra gain stages. My system uses just two gainstages and if your using a solid-state amp you could have 5 or six easy! Although I may give tri-amp a shot I have so much head room with my 5.5 watt RMS amps and have such outstanding performance easly obtaining 100db levels I don't see the need for the tri-amp right now I have a strong interest in an 833 amp and want to get involed in building and designing to sell.

One more point I don't think three very good amps are a substitute for one extrodinary amp the mono blocks that I have have some 400 joules of energy and output transformers that wieght 28lbs each that would be rather pricy to have 3 amps of the same quality. If your using a typical reciever, it might take 7-8 of them to equal the energy reserves of my mono's. And the mono's are nothing next to my 50lb. phonostage thats some 900 joules and I'm not the only one with a phonostage this crazy!

Again thanks for your input I look forward to conversing with you's more!

SET12

[Guest " "]

I think most folks have some reserve dynamic head room in their amps...see tech data for my 72lb 7 channel amp below (150 watt per channel). Like most folks....don't think I ever get to 1 watt on my 2004 lascala's.

Like a lot of folks however, I have one or two of the prior top of the line models, so next step, would be to put in an active crossover config using the existing amps. I wouldn't have active 7.1 sound...since I only have 17 channels of amplification avalible (tx-nx1000=7*150 watts, tx-ds989=5*130 watts, and second tx-ds939=5*130 watts), I can only do 5.1 in an active 3 way form and only be able to provide 130 watts to each tweeter and squaker, and only 150 watts to each woofer.

////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

Amplifier Section

Power Output* (8 ohm, 20 Hz-20 kHz, FTC)

Front L/R

150 W/Ch

Center

150 W

Surround L/R

150 W/Ch

Surround Back

150 W/Ch (L/R)

Power Output* (6 ohm, 1 kHz, FTC)

Front L/R

Center

Surround L/R

Surround Back

Dynamic Power** (front)

3 ohm

340 W/Ch

4 ohm

260 W/Ch

8 ohm

175 W/Ch

THD (Rated Power)

0.05 % (all channels)

Damping Factor (1 kHz, 8 ohm)

60

Input Sensitivity and Impedance

PHONO MM

2.5 mV, 50 k ohm

CD and TAPE Play

200 mV, 50 k ohm

Output Level and Impedance

TAPE REC

200 mV, 470 ohm

PRE OUT

1.0 V, 470 ohm

Frequency Response

5 Hz-100 kHz (+ 1 dB, - 3 dB)

S/N Ratio

PHONO (MM)

80 dB (IHF-A, 5 mV input)

CD/TAPE

110 dB (IHF-A, 0.5 V input)

Phono Overload (1 kHz)

120 mV RMS, 0.5 % THD

Tone Controls

BASS

+/- 10 dB at 50 Hz

TREBLE

+/- 10 dB at 20 kHz

Tuner Section

Usable Sensitivity

FM Mono

11.2 dBf, 1.0 uV (75 ohm IHF)

FM Stereo

17.2 dBf, 2.0 uV (75 ohm IHF)

AM

30 uV

S/N Ratio

FM Mono

76 dB (IHF-A)

FM Stereo

70 dB (IHF-A)

AM

40 dB

THD

FM Mono

0.2 %

FM Stereo

0.3 %

AM

0.7 %

FM Stereo Separation

45 dB at 1 kHz,30 dB at 100 Hz-10 kHz

General

Dimensions (W x H x D)

17-1/8" x 8-11/16" x 18-15/16"

Weight

72.8 lbs.