August Battle of the Amps Gathering in St. Louis

[Deang]

Do we have a list of those who are "in" yet?

[sheltie dave]

Dean, I'm trying to get the thread pinned to help get a handle on who is in. This is the list to date...

Definite

Carl, me, Captn Bob, Craig(NOSValves), lo 123, you?, Rocketman from the forum

Local definites -Thom, Scott, Jeff, Mike, Greg, John, Don, Bob, Grant

Waiting for RSVPs on arfz28, naimnut, raptorman, and others(5 to 10 at this point.)

Give me a ring after dinner if you have time. I carry the cell at work as well, and get good reception at the current foundry cleanup I'm running.

[Erik Mandaville]

Since this is going to be the Battle of the Amps gathering, which I would have loved to be able to attend, there is something I would like to mention that's important to me.

Since the amps I made were described earlier as being among those that are going to be in heavy rotation, I would think it appropriate to refer to them as the 'Mandaville amps,' or whatever you all prefer, but perhaps not 'Horus.' Here's why: Low-power single ended triode amps have not exactly been described in the most flattering terms here by some in the past, but the fact of the matter is that the amps I made are not really 'Horus' amplifiers. As some have modified Moondog 2A3 amps from the original design, the same is true with these amps and the original Horus. In terms of power and bass slam, the chance that they are going to be out-gunned are probably favorable. Moreover, if they are thought by some to be sluggish, overly detailed, weak, rolled-off, or whatever else compared to the heavier artillery (or ANY amp present), it would be wrong in my estimation to refer to them as JFL Horus amps. To do so would not only be incorrect, but unfair -- kind of like someone building a pair ALK ESN networks with DIY inductors made out of rusty iron wire that had been spray painted for insulation, and then hand-wound around a wooden spoon as a former (however, I would like to think my execution of the pair of monoblocks was not so haphazard as that) The point being that the DIY version of either the amp or the network is not an accurate representation of the 'factory built' version of the component.

I haven't heard one way or the other since I shipped them, so if in the approaching electronic confrontation they get stomped, blame it on me, okay? I have heard the original Horus, and it is an excellent single-ended amp. I also know that other owners of Pantheon Audio products are extremely happy with their components.

Cool?

Thanks!

Erik

[sheltie dave]

Erik, nothing is going to get stomped as a principle aim of the gathering - I threw the "battle" tag out as a rhetorical nom d'audio. We want it to be like a Ben and Jerry's ice cream parlor, with everyone welcomed and many delightful flavors, and people free to decide which flavor appeals most to them. I have always liked Cherries Garcia.

The St. Louis contingent has enough tube gear to adequately represent a good sampling of many of the common topologies, output tubes, manufacturers, and vintage/modern builders. We aren't going to conclusively prove that SS and tubes are both worse than live acts, even if it is easier to cue a cd or album[]

The part that has me excited is getting a good bunch of local people who haven't heard our varied systems to see what Klipsch speakers are all about. We are at the end of the summer, with most people getting ready for vacations or getting back, so maybe we are looking at a smaller forum section than we thought. It will be interesting.

No problem on the Horus citation; I like giving credit where it is due. Mandavilles are a lot easier to say in public and won't get a glance of distaste like when you stumble trying to say Horii, no, Horuses, erh, Hores.

[Erik Mandaville]

Sounds fun; I'm sure you all will have a great time.

Erik

[Parrot]

In terms of power and bass slam, the chance that they are going to be out-gunned are probably favorable. Moreover, if they are thought by some to be sluggish, overly detailed, weak, rolled-off, or whatever else compared to the heavier artillery (or ANY amp present), it would be wrong in my estimation to refer to them as JFL Horus amps. To do so would not only be incorrect, but unfair -- . . .

I'm not understanding this. Surely the mods you made were intended to improve the amps? Why would anyone alter an amp to make it worse? If someone happens not to like the "Mandeville," should he be told, "Ah, but you should have heard it in stock form"?

In my experience, a gung-ho 100% SET fanatic is never going to be dissuaded from the topology no matter what other amp thoroughly trounces it, so have no concern.

[Deang]

Man, I'm glad I didn't have to be the one to say it.

[coda]

http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?ampstube&1158264644

[Deang]

If you can live in that first watt then that's great, if not -- move along. I'll tell you this, Craig's first watt sounds a heck of lot better than Wright's first watt.

[Z4!]

In terms of power and bass slam, the chance that they are going to be out-gunned are probably favorable. Moreover, if they are thought by some to be sluggish, overly detailed, weak, rolled-off, or whatever else compared to the heavier artillery (or ANY amp present), it would be wrong in my estimation to refer to them as JFL Horus amps. To do so would not only be incorrect, but unfair -- . . .

<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />

I'm not understanding this. Surely the mods you made were intended to improve the amps? Why would anyone alter an amp to make it worse? If someone happens not to like the "Mandeville," should he be told, "Ah, but you should have heard it in stock form"?

In my experience, a gung-ho 100% SET fanatic is never going to be dissuaded from the topology no matter what other amp thoroughly trounces it, so have no concern.

For those of you who are interested in the Parrot's droppings, let's look at Eriks post a bit differently than the Parrot did:

Erik said:Since the amps I made were described earlier as being among those that are going to be in heavy rotation, I would think it appropriate to refer to them as the 'Mandaville amps,' or whatever you all prefer, but perhaps not 'Horus.' Here's why: Low-power single ended triode amps have not exactly been described in the most flattering terms here by some in the past, but the fact of the matter is that the amps I made are not really 'Horus' amplifiers. As some have modified Moondog 2A3 amps from the original design, the same is true with these amps and the original Horus. In terms of power and bass slam, the chance that they are going to be out-gunned are probably favorable. Moreover, if they are thought by some to be sluggish, overly detailed, weak, rolled-off, or whatever else compared to the heavier artillery (or ANY amp present), it would be wrong in my estimation to refer to them as JFL Horus amps. To do so would not only be incorrect, but unfair -- kind of like someone building a pair <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" />ALK ESN networks with DIY inductors made out of rusty iron wire that had been spray painted for insulation, and then hand-wound around a wooden spoon as a former (however, I would like to think my execution of the pair of monoblocks was not so haphazard as that) The point being that the DIY version of either the amp or the network is not an accurate representation of the 'factory built' version of the component.

It is apparent that Erik is saying his DIY amps based on the Horus design were not made by JFL so Erik thinks it probably isn't a good idea to refer to Eriks amps as JFL's amps. Erik probably didn't/couldn't use the exact same parts (Cobalt trannys?) as the JFL Horus so Eriks amps are a bit different. Different by definition is different, not necessarily better or worse. What sounds good to one person does not necessarily sound good to everyone this is a highly subjective hobby.

The Parrot continues to try to stir the pot with cherry picked incomplete quotes and general disinformation. []

Oh and Parrot you dropped:

In my experience, a gung-ho 100% SET fanatic is never going to be dissuaded from the topology

I know it doesn't fit your agenda but many on these boards have switched both from high power to low and low power to high.

Have a great day!

Is this site slow this afternoon or what?

[Erik Mandaville]

"Man, I'm glad I didn't have to be the one to say it.:)"

Why? What would it have changed if you HAD said it? Parrot's response indicates he completely missed the point of what I wrote. If you are in agreement with that, the same would be true of your interpretation.

If the VRD's first watt sounds better to you than that of another amplifier, that's just fine with me, and I would suggest listening to the VRDs instead of the other amp you mentioned. This concept of taste and preference is utterly simplistic and fundamental. After all this time, I'm honestly surprised that I need to point it out again.....actually, maybe I'm not so surprised. If we need to continue on with it, so be it.

Z4: You had this 100% correct. Thank you for making an effort to clarify my writing for those who didn't get it.

Erik

[Parrot]

In glancing over Erik's post again, I again interpret it the same way. The point is not to credit or discredit JFL. The point is, why wouldn't someone assume that mods made to JFL's design were done to enhance it.

Since I have not heard the JFL or the Mandy at this point in time, I can only speculate on the sound. But when the modder/builder himself takes great pains to say that he expects his work to be trounced, that doesn't sound like someone confident in his design. How many people would buy amps from someone who says right up front that his amp can easily be bettered in many parameters but is hoping someone will have the same taste that he has and not care. The post is striking in its defensiveness.

[Deang]

The way you wrote that out did read the way Paul said it did, and I thought is was funny. We know you didn't mean it that way.

It amazes that after years of Paul doing this kind of stuff that people continue to take it so seriously instead of just enjoying a good laugh.

[coda]

I'll tell you this, Craig's first watt sounds a heck of lot better than Wright's

first watt.

I get it now, for a second I thought you were serious. . . if

there is one shared design principle in common, it is minimalism.

if you're trying to have it both ways, it's harder to pull off comic

relief.

Since its inception, Klipsch has promoted the use of horn-loaded speakers as

part of its goal to produce speakers which are:

High in Efficiency, meaning that they can be driven by small amounts of amplifier power. . .

[jacksonbart]

Lets Get Ready To Rumble!

[Parrot]

Since its inception, Klipsch has promoted the use of horn-loaded speakers as part of its goal to produce speakers which are:

High in Efficiency, meaning that they can be driven by small amounts of amplifier power. . .

But to do it right, Klipsch has always recommended a minimum of 20W per channel for Heritage products. Current Klipsch thinking is the more power the better.

[mike stehr]

http://cgi.ebay.com/PYLE-PRO-2000-WATT-RACK-AMPLIFIER-349-buySAFE_W0QQitemZ7329025051QQihZ016QQcategoryZ14983QQtcZphotoQQcmdZViewItem

2000 watts of pure power....

[CaptnBob]

Hey, Dave,

How things coming (did they go) with the Alumni party?

[DrWho]

It amazes that after years of Paul doing this kind of stuff that people continue to take it so seriously instead of just enjoying a good laugh.

lol, so true...you guys need to meet Paul in person - it'll put everything into perspective.

Sadly I won't be able to make the gathering...I've got a final that Saturday and I'd rather not skip it and hope for a C in the class []

[sheltie dave]

Mike, that amp would probably be a steaming pyle of blown speakers.

Bob, the alumni reunion was pretty funny. They had about 200- 250 people, and about ten retired, retiring, and banished teachers there, including two nuns. Carl and I got blessed, were amused, had some good views, and saw less agitation than in this thread.

We would be able to push the Cornwalls at the pavilion to handle a party of about five hundred, while the Scalas could easily handle 5,000. They sounded great with the QSC amp and Carl's Peach.