IT IS A GREAT DAY!!!!!

[Jay481985]

Goodbye and good riddance to him.[] The only bad thing is he probably never knew what hit him.

Now THAT I can agree with.Its too bad he did not have his head laid on the choppin block,for a few days,with a blunt axe,and a blind axeman.

Blind rage and hatred only inspires more hatred. BTW I am not opposed to the death sentence, I just find that we use it on a whim. If someone is making a racket lets drop a 500 lb laser and gps guided precision bomb? I find justice done to see him scworming in prison and admiting that he is wrong and to tell his people to disband. Funny thing is time in prison changes anyone, even the most cruelest of people. I bet a bit of Abu Graib would change his mind [6]

Dying for evil people is to easy, I rather he be judged by his fellow man first and then his god.

[Fish]

Goodbye and good riddance to him.[] The only bad thing is he probably never knew what hit him.

Actually he was alive for more then three hours I heard on the news, he probably died of internal bleeding.

Thanks Jay,I had not heard that but I feel even better now.

Jay,hating someone has nothin' to do with justice.I don't know the guy,how could I hate him?I do know what he did and that he got the justice.

Its a nice world you want to live in Jay,kinda reminds me of they guy that wanted to go communicate w/the Aliens in War of The Worlds,then they Zapped him.

[Jay481985]

Its a nice world you want to live in Jay,kinda reminds me of they guy that wanted to go communicate w/the Aliens in War of The Worlds,then they Zapped him.

What is that supposed to mean [:@]? I rather be optimistic in a world I live in rather than "Lets kill everything that doesn't agree with us"

[Fish]

Its a nice world you want to live in Jay,kinda reminds me of they guy that wanted to go communicate w/the Aliens in War of The Worlds,then they Zapped him.

What is that supposed to mean [:@]? I rather be optimistic in a world I live in rather than "Lets kill everything that doesn't agree with us"

Jay,it appears you're headin' off the deep end.I really was complimenting your humanity,I was saying if we lived in the world you want/wish it was there would be no need for killin at all,but we don't.There is quite a bit of ground between Kill everything and killin' a mass murderer who loves blood and organs of innocent spattered about.I've said all I care to cause any more is pointless.

Have a good evening Jay,I know I will.

[Jay481985]

Have a good evening, and thanks for the clarification.

[ZAKO]

Jay .....I,m glad it went my way ...With my wish,s & not yours. My Dad died in WW II because of a crazy man.....It took 4 years to get to Berlin to get that bastard.... Im glad instant justice was served on todays Bastard. And may all his bastard children go to hell.

[travisc]

last thing I would every want to do is insult someone or thier religion. I seek happiness through selfless acts of kindness to others. But the reality is that as long as there is pain and suffering there will be delusional(evil) people who will profit in one way or another from it. Its the chicken or the egg argument. I say less revenge and more humanitarian efforts, lead by example violence breads violence.

There will be retribution as a result of this.

[Fish]

Its the chicken or the egg argument.

I just wanted to point out that this age old ? has been solved.It's been determined that the egg came first.

Through a blurp/leap in evolution some winged critter had an egg,it mutated and thus the modern chicken was hatched,who knew?

Actually I just made it up,I think.

Oh well....time to get back to havin' a GREAT DAY.

[Daddy Dee]

no tears here for Zarqawi.

Other than Nick Berg, I'm not sure how many hostages Zarqawi personally beheaded.

[ZAKO]

Trav....Untill a loved one or family member of yours is murdered by one of these mad men. You dont know the devistation and loss my family have felt. Its an expierance you will never forget. I only prey Zarquawi rotts in hell.

[jacksonbart]

Its a nice world you want to live in Jay,kinda reminds me of they guy that wanted to go communicate w/the Aliens in War of The Worlds,then they Zapped him.

What is that supposed to mean [:@]? I rather be optimistic in a world I live in rather than "Lets kill everything that doesn't agree with us"

I don't want to kill everyone who disagrees with us, I just want to kill everyone who would kill us. If he was just holding up signs in protests, orchistrating piecefull rallys with a permit, etc, then great, more power to him. Orchistrating car bombs to kill innocent civilians, kidnapping people and choping off thier heads, well I think that crosses the line.

[Cal Blacksmith]

I find it interesting how the news media have reported on

this. For the most part there is a neutral acknowledgement of his death then

the woe is us starts coming in overdrive. The media are so jaded by Viet Nam and by

their own personal agendas that NOTHING that is good is ever given positive

reporting. How well was it reported, that yesterday, was the second biggest

celebration by the people of Iraq

since the fall of Sadam? Over there it is a great celebration and here it is mostly

hand wringing and woe is us from the media!

One big difference of how the terrorists are treated by

the members of the different religions is that if a bomber blows up an abortion

clinic, he is denounced by every main stream Christian denomination, that is a

far cry from the silence that comes from the majority of the Muslim world, thus they

are letting the radicals who celebrate, get the majority of the press.

I find for the most part the Muslim people to be very friendly

and warm. I have a very long mustache and one time while my family was in line at a

buffet for dinner, a young woman who was part of a family also eating there,

mentioned that my whiskers (my word not hers) were like Osama. I was not

offended at all, though he is not generally well thought of here and to be compared

to him might be thought of as an insult, she was recently arrived to our

country and evidently spoke little English. She was searching for common ground

to communicate by and chose a person who she thought I might know of as a frame

of reference. I thought it was sweet, she was giving me a compliment and I took

it as such.

[mildodiferousfunk]

Cal,

There are many Muslims that denounce what the terrorists claim..only thing is the media does not cover it. Fascination sells for the media and so the message of terrorists is more fascinating that the message of mainstream Muslims. You just have to search and you will see where it is denounced. To your point though, Muslims (I am one) do not do well enough of a job of "advertising" what the true message of the religion is. Muslims in general do not recognize any one "leader" of modern-day Islam as a representative, or "voice of Islam", and thus generally do not feel they need to denounce the actions of the terrorists. This is a double-edged sword. In general, it is felt that the actions of terrorists are not logical and thus any non-Muslim would understand that these actions could derive from this religion. Any logical person understands that any major religion could not condone the evils one sees today. Any twisting of religion is derived from a lust for power, money, etc. For example, the plight of widows in Hinduism does not derive from the true teachings of Hinduism. A good movie about this is Water. There is a scene where a widow asks the priest how could their religion teach this lifestyle for a widow and he replies that this a construct created so that the deceased husband's family no longer has to care for the widow. Many of today's following of the major religions have been twisted over time to suit the lusts (for power, money, etc.) of man. When one goes back to the original message, they are typically very similar whether it be Christianity, Hinduism, Buddhism, Judaism, Islam, fill in the blank. They all teach that good treatment of your fellow man is the ultimate form of worship of a superior intellect/design. Back to the point, Muslims have a challnege before them and that is to speak for their own religion before allowing someone else with an ulterior motive speak for them (such as much of the media).

Bart, I understand your feelings and am not sure if this is the best approach. I do not believe we should be passive, however this is a simple case of the "chickens coming home to roost". We drop 500 lb bombs and behead people in that manner...what do you think the product of this is? I am not sure I have an answer for this, however we are again the cowboy's fighing "those heathen indians". Those that do not learn from history... We have been meddling in Middle East affairs for sveral generations now. There is a cultural divide: the Muslims in the ME look at the decadance of Western culture (MTV, moral liberalism, etc.) and fear it as a threat to their way of life while Western leaders take advantage of the situation and culturally divide and conquer in the ME. My solution is to pull out and stop meddling with ME affairs (world affiars for that matter) and allow neighbors to act as neighbors. If someone threatens or attacks, only then respond with a strong and harsh response. Continuing in this trend of meddling will only leave our children and our children's children to deal with the affects of our actions today. The US is a role model and should never forget this. Muslims must also understand that many of the concepts of Western culture are parallel to those in Islam, we have just forgotten this somehow.

As for Zarqawi, let God judge him.

[Cal Blacksmith]

EDIT, somehow this didn't make it into the post:

I had not intended this to get into a religious debate;
there are many ways that such a thread could go sour. That has not happened on
this thread and I really hope it does not go bad in the future. Open dialog is
the best way to discover our differences and reach understanding.

end edit.

Mild, you are indeed correct in many of your points, save
one. Christianity is different from ALL other religions in the world. The core belief
is that Christ laid down life of his own free will to pay for our transgressions
and then picked it back up again and returned to this world to proclaim his
victory over death thus giving man the hope to do the same through him. This is
exclusive to the Christian faith, thus to say it is the same as all other
faiths, is somewhat misleading. You can choose to believe this teaching or you
may not choose to, I will not try to persuade anyone against their will. I am
only pointing out that the foundation of this faith is not like any other so
please do not lump us all together. You may have differences with Christians
and that is fine.

The troubles in the ME is that of brothers, and family.
There has been much bad blood has passed over the years. Isaac and Ishmael
started this whole thing centuries ago and it will take a higher power than man
to fix it. I believe that the policy to protect the smaller homeland of the family
of one brother from the family of the other brother who wants to wipe out the
smaller homeland is a just one.

We can not turn our backs from those who intend to do us
harm either. The radicals who attacked us on 9-11 had free rein in Iraq; the
leader of that country was defiant to the world. He had shown his true colors
of region domination when he attacked his neighbor. He was defeted and driven
back to within his own borders and part of letting him stay in charge of his
country was to agree to terms of surrender. He was defiant to the terms, made
inspections difficult or impossible and continued with his aggressive ways. The
world spoke out over a dozen times for him to comply with the restrictions he agree
to when he was defeated. The leader was defiant to the end.

In the process of chasing those who had attacked us, we have
freed MILLIONS of people who were under the oppression of this leader. Zarqawi
was the bloodthirsty General of the radicals in Iraq, responsible for the deaths of
several people at his own hand and for hundreds and hundreds with his direction
to others, and thus needed to be removed. He moved house to house every few
hours, he thought he was safe, he was wrong.

[Jay481985]

Mild, you are indeed correct in many of your points, save

one. Christianity is different from ALL other religions in the world. The core belief

is that Christ laid down life of his own free will to pay for our transgressions

and then picked it back up again and returned to this world to proclaim his

victory over death thus giving man the hope to do the same through him. This is

exclusive to the Christian faith, thus to say it is the same as all other

faiths, is somewhat misleading. You can choose to believe this teaching or you

may not choose to, I will not try to persuade anyone against their will. I am

only pointing out that the foundation of this faith is not like any other so

please do not lump us all together. You may have differences with Christians

and that is fine.

We can not turn our backs from those who intend to do us

harm either. The radicals who attacked us on 9-11 had free rein in Iraq; Ummm actually, Sadam kept control of his people through an iron fist, there was no rebels openly defying anyone when Sadam was in power. BTW Sadam had nothing to do with 9/11 and even our own Government through the 9/11 Commission made that statement. the

leader of that country was defiant to the world. He had shown his true colors

of region domination when he attacked his neighbor. Sadam attacked Kuqwait and Saudi Arabia due to money. The UN had an embargo until he paid his debt to Iran, so he invaded another country for the oil fields. Something this country denies doing. He was defeted and driven

back to within his own borders and part of letting him stay in charge of his

country was to agree to terms of surrender. Actually George Bush Sr knew that he would need quite an army to defeat and keep the country stable. Hence Bush Sr rather let Sadam stay in power then risk losing thousands of American soldiers, something that Bush Sr forgot to tell his son. He was defiant to the terms, made

inspections difficult or impossible and continued with his aggressive ways. I think Sadam was defiant at the inspections themselves as we still cannot find any trace of WMD. Clearly our advanced technology would have found them by now.The

world spoke out over a dozen times for him to comply with the restrictions he agree

to when he was defeated. The leader was defiant to the end. BTW Sadam and Zarqawi are not the same people. Sadam was not a Fundamentalist ruler, he was more western than most of the other Arabic states. Sadam liked western culture as you saw him in Western Attire, shot his 30000 dollar English hand made rifle, used American SUV to travel, etc.

In the process of chasing those who had attacked us, we have

freed MILLIONS of people who were under the oppression of this leader. Zarqawi

was the bloodthirsty General Actually Zarqawi was living in Jordan as a convicted rapist, but was not a General nor related to Sadam by blood nor rank. of the radicals in Iraq, responsible for the deaths of

several people at his own hand and for hundreds and hundreds with his direction

to others, and thus needed to be removed. He moved house to house every few

hours, he thought he was safe, he was wrong.

[SilverSport]

Jay, I am disappointed in you on this...

No one was talking about Sadaam's control of anybody but that the radicals had a free reign in Iraq to hate the US fostered by Sadaam...No, he didn't DIRECTLY have anything to do with 9-1-1 but he did provide training camps etc for those that did...

Sadaam attacked Kuwait because he wanted EVEN MORE MONEY THAN HE ALREADY HAD...HE wasted his cash on palaces and things HE wanted...yes he felt the pinch from HIS transgressions, please don't make this about us and him. Sadaam was the captain of his own Titanic.

We didn't go INTO Iraq during the 1st Gulf War because that was not the Mandate...getting him out of Kuwait WAS the mandate and our Arab Coalitionists refused to support us should we cross into Iraq...

Who cares what Sadaam thought about having to endure the inspections...HE signed that agreement (rather Tariq Azizz on his behalf) and should have been held to the letter of it...he was not and well, we know what happened then don't we...

I think Zarquawi BECAME The General as the leader of al Queda in Iraq...that was the point made earlier. We aren't talking about his time in Jordan.

I think there is plenty of blame to go around and we caused some of our own hardship by some of our policies...backing one side against the other when it served our purposes but I don't think we deserve the blame for 9-1-1 nor the responses in Iraq from non-Iraqis wishing to further THEIR cause and not that of the people of Iraq...

Please don't think this is a rant against you Jay as I don't intend that to be, I just disagree with your findings...you are all free to disagree with mine as well...

Bill

[Jay481985]

Jay, I am disappointed in you on this...

No one was talking about Sadaam's control of anybody but that the radicals had a free reign in Iraq to hate the US fostered by Sadaam...No, he didn't DIRECTLY have anything to do with 9-1-1 but he did provide training camps etc for those that did...

I made the point because it seemed like in the post prior that we talked about Sadam. I wanted to make sure that Saddam and Al-Zarquwari were differentiated. As with the training camps, I had no clue. Can you offer me more insight from a news source? It might have been a training camp but I doubt it was sponsored by Saddam. Saddam was a fearful man, having numerous body doubles and such where he moved from place to place for fear of assasination pre 9/11 too. I doubt that Saddam would make a training ground that could turn on him.

Sadaam attacked Kuwait because he wanted EVEN MORE MONEY THAN HE ALREADY HAD...HE wasted his cash on palaces and things HE wanted...yes he felt the pinch from HIS transgressions, please don't make this about us and him. Sadaam was the captain of his own Titanic.

We didn't go INTO Iraq during the 1st Gulf War because that was not the Mandate...getting him out of Kuwait WAS the mandate and our Arab Coalitionists refused to support us should we cross into Iraq... that is true and the reason why Osama Bin Laden was soo angry at his own family. He was a son of a Saudi Shiek and he was angry that the King allowed American troops to enter and use Saudi Arabia as an military base against Iraq in the first war. Hence Saudi Arabia was not used the second due to public opinion against the king.

Who cares what Sadaam thought about having to endure the inspections...HE signed that agreement (rather Tariq Azizz on his behalf) and should have been held to the letter of it...he was not and well, we know what happened then don't we...

I think Zarquawi BECAME The General as the leader of al Queda in Iraq...that was the point made earlier. We aren't talking about his time in Jordan. Again it would seem by the post before that Zarquwari was a General under Saddam. I just wanted to make it clear he went to Iraq after the fall and was not even a citizen prior to.

I think there is plenty of blame to go around and we caused some of our own hardship by some of our policies...backing one side against the other when it served our purposes but I don't think we deserve the blame for 9-1-1 nor the responses in Iraq from non-Iraqis wishing to further THEIR cause and not that of the people of Iraq...

Please don't think this is a rant against you Jay as I don't intend that to be, I just disagree with your findings...you are all free to disagree with mine as well... I do not think its a rant against me at all. We are here to dicuss whatever our minds are but I find an informative thread the best. I am here to learn too.

Bill

[SilverSport]

...cool...as for the camps...I will have to search for that but do you really think ANYTHING went on in Iraq without the express written authority of Major League Baseball??? (a wee bit tongue in cheek)

Bill

[mildodiferousfunk]

Mild, you are indeed correct in many of your points, save one. Christianity is different from ALL other religions in the world. The core belief is that Christ laid down life of his own free will to pay for our transgressions and then picked it back up again and returned to this world to proclaim his victory over death thus giving man the hope to do the same through him. This is exclusive to the Christian faith, thus to say it is the same as all other faiths, is somewhat misleading. You can choose to believe this teaching or you may not choose to, I will not try to persuade anyone against their will. I am only pointing out that the foundation of this faith is not like any other so please do not lump us all together. You may have differences with Christians and that is fine.

Cal, every faith can claim to be unique and exclusive, however I was simply making the point that every major religion teaches to respect fellow man above all. Does Christianity preach that one should disrespect their neighbor if they do not believe in the message of Christ as you believe? Obviously, NO. My point was that mutual respect if a primary tenet of any religion. I can claim Islam is unique an exclusive in some of its approaches just as one could claim the same of any religionthis is why we have different religions and different sects within these religions. In any case, we do have some different views but that is OKthat is the fabric of humanity.

The troubles in the ME is that of brothers, and family. There has been much bad blood has passed over the years. Isaac and Ishmael started this whole thing centuries ago and it will take a higher power than man to fix it. I believe that the policy to protect the smaller homeland of the family of one brother from the family of the other brother who wants to wipe out the smaller homeland is a just one.

I will not ponder on this too much, but the idea of the US protecting another country based on religious ideas is a dangerous concept. The uniqueness of the US is that it is a fabric of cultures and foreign policy, especially, should not favor any religion or group over another. If this happens, it destroys the fabric of the US and loses the uniqueness that other countries would like to emulate. If it indeed true that we protect a small country due to religious convictions, then the war against terror is not a war against terrorit is a war against Islam. If our motives are truly noble (protecting a smaller country from surrounding hostile countries), then take your pick of countries around the world which we should protect. I feel the situation in the ME can have an acceptable solution. Draw Israels final boundaries and Palestines boundaries and create a neutral state of Jerusalem (somewhat like the Vatican) controlled by a world party. The issue that Muslims have with Israel revolves around Jerusalem and control of the Dome of the Rockthe Palestinian issue is a secondary issue, although important nonetheless. In summary, my point is do not mix religion and foreign policythis is an extremely dangerous and volatile mix.

We can not turn our backs from those who intend to do us harm either. The radicals who attacked us on 9-11 had free rein in Iraq; the leader of that country was defiant to the world. He had shown his true colors of region domination when he attacked his neighbor. He was defeted and driven back to within his own borders and part of letting him stay in charge of his country was to agree to terms of surrender. He was defiant to the terms, made inspections difficult or impossible and continued with his aggressive ways. The world spoke out over a dozen times for him to comply with the restrictions he agree to when he was defeated. The leader was defiant to the end.

The radicals who attacked us 9-11 are in Afghanistancan anyone say Bin Laden? Saddam was our buddy until he no longer served our needs. The noble point of view as to why we attacked Iraq falls under its own pretenses. I do not feel this even needs to be discussed. The noble motives we had for removing Saddam are humorous at best.

In the process of chasing those who had attacked us, we have freed MILLIONS of people who were under the oppression of this leader. Zarqawi was the bloodthirsty General of the radicals in Iraq, responsible for the deaths of several people at his own hand and for hundreds and hundreds with his direction to others, and thus needed to be removed. He moved house to house every few hours, he thought he was safe, he was wrong.

Zarqawi was a bad personhe did his work up close and personal. Do you not believe that modern warfare is just as vicious? Dropping bombs that weigh as much as car from thousands of feet in the air does not kill cleanly either. The blood is on many hands on both sides. The problem is that many of us fool ourselves into believing our cause is more noble.

[Cal Blacksmith]

Mild, You said,

Cal, every faith can claim to be unique and exclusive, however I was simply making the point that every major religion teaches to respect fellow man above all.

I disagree, you said

When one goes back to the original message, they are typically very similar whether it be Christianity, Hinduism, Buddhism, Judaism, Islam, fill in the blank. They all teach that good treatment of your fellow man is the ultimate form of worship of a superior intellect/design.

This is not the ultimate form of Christian worship, nor is it the original message of Christianity. The message is that we are all in the same boat and it is sinking. The only life raft is through Christ. Respect of others is the desired way to treat other people as without respect, relations quickly break down and no one is better off in that situation.

In any case, we do have some different views but that is OKthat is the fabric of humanity.

We agree 100%

If it indeed true that we protect a small country due to religious convictions, then the war against terror is not a war against terrorit is a war against Islam.

No, rather Arab countries (not Islam, which is a religion) are antagonistic with and sometimes are at war with the small country. This is evidenced as the small country has not ever tried to extend its borders by aggression, rather it has been attacked several times by its neighbors and has defeated them, in some cases gaining land as the attacker was beaten back and when the truce was called, the battle lines redefined the border of the small country. Yes, we defend the small country due to our common background but like brothers who stick up for each other, we do not agree with everything the other does.

The issue that Muslims have with Israel revolves around Jerusalem and control of the Dome of the Rockthe Palestinian issue is a secondary issue, although important nonetheless.

I would agree that these are main themes of disagreement. To put the shoe on the other foot, so to speak, how would Muslims feel if someone placed a temple on the ruins of the Dome of the Rock and then had issues with allowing Muslims access to their own ruins?

Which temple is built on which temples ruins is the issue here. There will be no easy way out of this situation. Both religions claim this to be holy ground and thus the problems. Again I say this is an unfortunate situation and there will be no easy way to resolve it, if ever.

The radicals who attacked us 9-11 are in Afghanistancan anyone say Bin Laden? Saddam was our buddy until he no longer served our needs. The noble point of view as to why we attacked Iraq falls under its own pretenses. I do not feel this even needs to be discussed. The noble motives we had for removing Saddam are humorous at best.

Yes Saddam has been on both sides of our foreign policy, and mistakes were made in trying to use him to our own ends, this was wrong. However the freeing of millions of people was a side benefit of the need to remove him from power. The fact that the millions of people are now free to govern themselves is still true and I find no humor in it.

Saddam had defied the world, not just the U.S. There were over a dozen warnings given to him by the U.N. (a place that is its self, not pro U.S.) These warnings were backed up with warnings that military power would be used if he did not comply. The belief that he had WMDs was not an only U.S. view at all, several other countries using their own intelligence gathering services had reached the same conclusion and they were not limited to England, France and Germany. This fact is what placed the last straw on the camels back.

Zarqawi was a bad personhe did his work up close and personal. Do you not believe that modern warfare is just as vicious? Dropping bombs that weigh as much as car from thousands of feet in the air does not kill cleanly either. The blood is on many hands on both sides. The problem is that many of us fool ourselves into believing our cause is more noble.

War is a messy business, but MODERN warfare is MUCH cleaner and protects MANY more innocent people than in the past. Think of the air raids on London and Berlin. Entire cities laid waste, the populations decimated. The modern warfare we have now is much more precise at targeting the enemy than it has ever been before.

The difference between the two sides in this war is that while we may occasionally accidentally kill some innocent people, the other side uses this tactic as its main strategy. The terrorists think nothing about killing innocent people to make their point, in fact, that is their preferred method. We on the other hand are trying very hard to only target those who would harm us. Yes sometimes innocent people are there also but it is the terrorists that hide in mosques, hospitals, schools and anywhere innocent people are, to try to protect themselves from being targeted. THEY are the ones that place innocent people in harms way.