Are You useing a Power Conditioner?

[SET12]

Hi people!

I noticed a disscussion in home theater about power conditioners and thought the 2-channel could have a discussion on them as well! The following comments are from my local club posts. I am new to them I spent about a week doing some research and have found a very good performing one that is working better than I expected for the funds I have spent with very good construction quality here is a couple of pics of mine which is not as nice looking as the rack model that Speakerfritz owns but is less costly

No doubt since becoming a NEWAS member the clubs members are having an enfluence on me

Recently Raggy pm'd me with an interesting product which I'll let him go into detail, But the thing that caught my eye was a claim of being able to "reclock" for power factor correction. Over the past week I have been searching the net for any imfo on the subject when I ran into Furman Power Conditioner line with their IT-Referance 20 a 2500$ 80lb monster that has not only balanced power out like the EQ-Tech but with Power Factor Correction. Raggy's designer felt that it was an even more important issue to be addressed than just overall noise in one of the forums that I read and I would have to concur based on what I learned in my Electronics Schooling. And interestingly, Raggy has a few of the Furman products in his studio and has indicated that the company has an excellant reputation and service.


So What is it? It is poor quality power an it is getting worse! Ever wonder why listening to music late into the night sounded so good?

During the day alot of electric motors are running, and they are sources of Inductance this inductance robs the ability of your amplifier to source current that's "amperage" there by starving an amplifier of its dynamics! Because an Inductor resists current change it would rather hold the flow than give it up!

A typical transformer for residential electric service is about 50KW it will supply 5-10 homes those 5 -10 homes will be using lots of appliances all shareing the same line you are!

Power Factor is such an issue that in Europe and Japan, They have mandated power factor correction supplies for computers!

Furman has a product that can within limits correct
this issue! By sourceing current! Its called a PF-Pro Power Factor Pro - Series II and as of this moring I just bought one.

A link to the PF-Pro Power Factor Pro
http://www.furmansound.com/products/pro/pwr_cond_seq/cond/_pf/pfpro.php


This particular model has 1/2 the capacity of the Referance IT - 20 one of these can handle Raggys mono's or my SET's and a few Solid- State amps
It comes in a pretty version and an ugly industrial version I opted for the cheaper Industrial looking one as I may buy a second unit.

Check out
www.furmansound.com

I bought mine from www.audiomidi.com

because of free ground shipping for 245$

This product can also be use in series with other conditioners please consult Furmans for imfo as to use to avoid damage to either units.

The Furman has arrived as of yesterday afternoon, I hooked it up right away and let it cook awhile. It is constructed very solidly and is rather nice looking you can get a rack mount one that is alot better looking but it is some 50$ more.

Susan steped out of the house for awhile which allowed me to bee line to the stereo and check out some of my reference recordings for an hour or so.

Heres what I have initially found subject to a longer evaluation.

First thing noticed is a substantially lower noise floor.

A larger soundstage as though it isn't big enough already but recently one of my 572 tubes filaments let loose and I had to insert my old Svetlana 811's their soundstage is normally a little smaller but not by much. With the Furman installed the soundstage is substantially larger than with the 572's

Their clearly seems to be more imformation everywhere, ambient especially. I noticed, lateral imfo is more clearly outlined as well as the back of the stage.

It seems the decays are longer piano especially sounds great.

Vocals seem to almost pop out in relief really grabing your attention. Something Rzr may very well like it sure got my attention.

Dynamic Range seems greatly enhanced with a greater sense of ease.

The system seems to have a greater sense of solidity with speed, bass notes seem like they will stop on a dime, pitch defination is better not that I ever had alot of it but the bass lines are better defined almost like being fit and trim with greater wieght and authority not that I ever had an issue with authority, but the 811 has never been as convincenceing as the 572 yet with the Furman in place the 811 goes beyond what I remember of the 572.

All in all the Furman has some magic no doubt. I am using the Plug with my CD player as we did at Boss's in combination with the Furman.

With the Furman sourcing current alot of these observations makes sense.

As I mentionioned elsewhere Niagra has a pair of solid-state mono blocks featureing Power Factor Correction built into their amps.

SET12

[Dax617]

I use a Furman ps pro series II, It is also a power sequencer. It is handy for shutting things down in the correct order. It seemed to knock out a lot of line noise, I like it. about $300

T.C.

[fini]

Oops, sorry! I thought this was about hair products.

[Gilbert]

I use a Furman ps pro series II, It is also a power sequencer. It is handy for shutting things down in the correct order. It seemed to knock out a lot of line noise, I like it. about $300

T.C.

Did it seem to reduce line noise, or did it definitely reduce line noise and make a difference.

The reason I ask is because I've yet to meet someone that can say a line conditioner made a real difference.

I own one. It wasn't cheap, and I can't say I notice a bit a difference. Nothing at all actually.

Personally, I think they rank right up there with high dollar speaker wire, and cheap snake oil. I honestly don't think a power conditioner offers anything over a good surge protector.

[SET12]

I use a Furman ps pro series II, It is also a power sequencer. It is handy for shutting things down in the correct order. It seemed to knock out a lot of line noise, I like it. about $300

T.C.

Did it seem to reduce line noise, or did it definitely reduce line noise and make a difference.

The reason I ask is because I've yet to meet someone that can say a line conditioner made a real difference.

I own one. It wasn't cheap, and I can't say I notice a bit a difference. Nothing at all actually.

Personally, I think they rank right up there with high dollar speaker wire, and cheap snake oil. I honestly don't think a power conditioner offers anything over a good surge protector.

There are many different types of conditioners out there! The Furman is unique in that it attempts source current when it lags the voltage due to a line having alot of motor activity, The line becomes inductive people are often sharing power transformers on the pole with 5-10 other house holds many people have experianced great late night listening and have noted a differance in the sound of their systems I believe the more performance a system has the more you'll notice.

Many conditioners simply attack the noise issue or they correct voltage by regulation, Other people will use Isolation Transformers large ones at that 3-6 KW but they do nothing for the Power Factor which is a relationship between a purely resistive line and an Inductive or capacitive line usually Industry uses a bank of capacitors to change the phase of the current, a power factor of 1 would be a purely resistive line where as a power factor of .5 would be very inductive. You can find the electrical math on this subject.

When an amplifier wants its current for a dynamic peak the line if it could talk would be saying to bad I'm keeping the current at what it is and am not releaseing any more this is what a choke does in a tube amp besides droping noise across it. Chokes are a topic onto itself. But the Furman does work as advertised it does eliminate noise maybe not as much as some conditioners but my main interest is its Power Factor correction capabilities which are very audiable in my system.

SET12

[Guest " "]

There are many types (ups, brown out, line conditioning, and surge protecting only) and a few approaches.

One approach is to change the in-line 120 to a split phase 60-0-60. The split phase approach allows noise on the line to be cancelled out due to the effects of connecting 2 out of phase 60 volt sources as a single 120 one.

The return on investment of using ups, brown out, or line conditioners is really based on how bad your power is and how much noise your house hold devices are introducinng into your circuts.

[Duke Spinner]

never use a power conditioner on a Amplifier

[Guest " "]

never use a power conditioner on a Amplifier

please say more on this

[Dax617]

SET- I noticed a definite difference, although I got the unit for surge protection and sequencing. What made that difference? I dont know. I have spoke with Furman and they say it does not protect against brown voltage.

Duke- are you still out there? I have a pro audio question in the forum any help would be appreciated.

[tigerwoodKhorns]

I use a Furman ps pro series II, It is also a power sequencer. It is handy for shutting things down in the correct order. It seemed to knock out a lot of line noise, I like it. about $300

T.C.

Did it seem to reduce line noise, or did it definitely reduce line noise and make a difference.

The reason I ask is because I've yet to meet someone that can say a line conditioner made a real difference.

I own one. It wasn't cheap, and I can't say I notice a bit a difference. Nothing at all actually.

Personally, I think they rank right up there with high dollar speaker wire, and cheap snake oil. I honestly don't think a power conditioner offers anything over a good surge protector.

Gilbert,

I don't necessairily think that they are snake oil. I have heard that if you have a problem a power conditioner can clean it up but if there is no problem then there will beno difference. Now, I did not notice any difference at all, but I did notice a difference in my Philips DVD 963 SA when I installed a blackgate capacitor.

However, a Monster 3500 is definately worth it because they can be had for around $100 when rebates are out an dthey have a great equipment waranty.

Duke,

I hav eheard not to connect amps to power conditioners but no reason. Why?

Thanks,

Chris

[Duke Spinner]

never use a power conditioner on a Amplifier

please say more on this

kills dynamic's

[Duke Spinner]

it's like sukkin' on onnea them small straws they give you with a mixed drink

[Duke Spinner]

SET- I noticed a definite difference, although I got the unit for surge protection and sequencing. What made that difference? I dont know. I have spoke with Furman and they say it does not protect against brown voltage.

Duke- are you still out there? I have a pro audio question in the forum any help would be appreciated.

musta missed it ....

P.M. me ....[]

[Gilbert]

never use a power conditioner on a Amplifier

My hts amps are the only thing not connected to my power conditioner. I was told to do this from my favorite salesman at Ultimate Elec., he mentioned that it was useless because of the huge toroidal transformers in my SS amps. He attempted to explained why in some detail, but that was about 4yrs ago when I was first building a HTS.

For my 2 channel systems, I'm only running a good surge protector (Kensington's, nothing special), and the tube amps are being fed from it. Is that kosher?

Chris, my neighborhood must have a clean power line. If I lived in an industrial area, then I might believe they're not all snake oil, but right now, that's about what my opinion has shaped up to be. I'm not dead set on believing they're pure BS, but I do believe they're more than 95% there already.

I honestly wouldn't be disappointed if someone highly technical or savy could convince me otherwise. That way I wouldn't feel like I flushed money down the toilet with mine (monster's htps 7000)...... But currently, I do believe they lean heavily towards the snake oil department. For me, all they offer is some pretty lights, and maybe a line voltage indicator, but that's about it. I have a HT preamp that handles the sequential power up and power down niceties, but this is a cool feature to incorporate into a cough, cough...Line Conditioner. I think "Line Filter" more accurately describes the manufacturers claims, but the word Conditioner is a whole lot better from a sales stand-point.

[Duke Spinner]

hard to say, Gilbert..

lotsa difference between a tube AMP and, a SS amp

remember, the SS amp has only the voltage availible at the Rail to draw from, maybe 20 volts above the output device

the tube AMP has , magnetic flux, and 500- 600 volt B+ supply

not the same , Eh

[IB Slammin]

Oops, sorry! I thought this was about hair products.

I need that.[:'(]

[Guest " "]

hard to say, Gilbert..

 

lotsa difference between a tube AMP and, a SS amp

remember, the SS amp has only the voltage availible at bthe Rail to drew fom, maybe 20 volts above the output device

 

the tube AMP has , magnetic flux, and 5- 600 volt B+ supply

 

not the same , Eh

Intresting.

Line conditioner insertion loss.

You folks with good power have it made. My power is so bad, i have no choice but to use the various power gizmos (line regulator and line conditioner).

With my HT system off, My AVS 2000 line regulator is currently adding 9 volts to the household ac to bring it up to 120 volts. The AVS 2000 line regulator has a 3000 watt variable air core transformer in it. The amount of juice the AVS 2000 adds to the line varies as I crank up the volume on my HT once I turn it on. Adding 19 volts to the incoming line is not unusal. My HT system is on a 30 amp dedicated line.

My HTPS 7000 line conditioner shows 120 in and 120 out reguardless of the load the amp places on the power line due to the voltage the AVS 2000 adds to the line. The HTPS 7000 has a peak current rating of 50 amps.

So I am thinking, if there was some insertion loss as a result of using the HTPS 7000 line conditioner, it should be minimal and neglible compared to the juice being added to the power line by the AVS 2000.

[picky]

I use a Tripp Lite LCR2400 Rack Mount Line Conditioner to protect my entire equipment rack. I have a 20-Amp home run circuit dedicated to the rack. This unit will handle a 20 Amp load. It is connected to everything, including my Pioneer Elite VSX-49TXi receiver (130 WPC into 8 ohms x 7 Channels).

I have listened to the receiver's dynamics performance both with and without the Line Conditioner in the circuit. The gunfight scene in 'Open Range' and the first cannonball attack in 'Master and Commander' are a great test for this in additon to certain music. I do not notice a change or absence of the dynamics with the conditioner in line. I do however, notice there is an absense of transient clicks and pops from other circuits in the house when the conditioner is in line.

We live in an highly industrialized area and it is common to see voltage line sags here, especially around dinner time (6 to 7 PM). Using 2 voltmeters (line in and line out) I have seen the Tripp Lite correct the voltage going to the rack immediately, numerous times. It also has "idiot lights" on the front panel to tell you what it's doing. That's why I bought the voltmeters; I wanted something more precise.

I paid around $250 for the unit about 3 or 4 years ago. I consider it a worthy addition to the rack. Even if lightening hits our power line and fries everything, the insurance provided by Tripp Lite will more than cover all of my equipment. Everything but the subwoofer is plugged into ours, even the projector. The sub has it's own, smaller Tripp Lite filter on a separate power line circuit.

[Guest " "]

picky

You did well on the price of the LCR2400. Street price is 499.

That unit is both a voltage regulator and a line conditioner.

Tripp Lite Rack Mount Line Conditioners automatically regulate incoming AC voltage to keep computers and other electronics working thru brownouts and overvoltages without using battery power. Voltage as low as 87 volts and as high as 140 volts is corrected to supply constant 120V power to connected equipment. 5" x 5 1/2" x 19". Includes surge supression and $25,000 Ultimate Lifetime Insurance for connected equipment.

[picky]

speakerfritz: Good deals on the unit can still be had. ProVantage, one of Tripp Lite's authorized on-line re-sellers, currently has the unit in stock for $241.23 + Shipping. Others have it from $289 to $317. So, there are some good deals out there on this unit. I consider it a small price to pay for some heavy-duty protection.