Yin and Yang livingroom, new to horns.

[esl_57]

Hi Hi folks, on Friday I brought home a pair of Klipschorns that appear to be original and unmolested. They are a rosewood finish and Im told were built in 1976. This is a huge departure from what I normally listen to (Restored Quad 57s). They are structurally good but cosmeticly not so good. The veneer is cracked and lifting, and although this doesn't affect the sound I still intend to remedy that. In fact I intend a complete restoration... eventually :-).<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />

For the first few hours of operation there seemed to be an intermittent fault with one of the units. Both the tweeter and mid horn would distort and intermittently fade then cut out. I managed to localize it to the x-over itself before the symptom disappeared all together. The forum lurking Ive done so far has unearthed a great deal of information in a short amount of time and Im grateful for the enthusiasts that post their troubles, thoughts and solutions here. Thanks in advance for the support Ill no doubt be needing in the months to follow.

I'll attempt to attach a couple photos of the set up.

BTW. The Klipschorns don't even know that the Quads are setup in front of them and changing from horns to electrostats only involves moving my sources to the Audible Illusions / Classe or 405 combo.

[BEC]

Welcome esl-57,

Try loosening and then re-tightening all the screws on both sides of the crossover terminal strip. While doing that look for any bad looking connections on the crossover.

Quad 57s to Khorns. Now that is a change for you.

Bob Crites

[esl_57]

Thanks for the speedy reply Bob.

Yup, I gave the screws a turn after verifying the drivers and the symptom was still there. After doing some reading I mucked about with the old soldering iron (desoldered the mid horn from the tapped inductor and attached it to a different tap, temporarily, with an alligator lead) and the symptom has not returned.

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Although the bass response has picked up some with use it is still, to say the leased, a tad anemic. My Quads are smoking the horns in every category (except ability to play really loud) so far. I was expecting the horns to out perform the Quads in low end quantity (not qualityJ) but so far this is not happening. The woofers are working and the output is the same from both horns. Is this kind of thing typical of horns that have not been used in some time?

Bill

[Marvel]

Welcome to the forum. Very nice looking horns with the Rosewood. They should sound way better than you indicate. Bob (and everyone else on here) will probably tell you that the problem is likely to be the crossovers. Those capacitors degrade over time. Bob, as well as a couple of others on here, can rework the crossovers (new caps, etc.) or you could do it yourself.

Lots of crossover replacements available too, and the cost isn't really too bad.

Bruce

[garyrc]

After you fix your Klipschorns, please describe for us the strong, medium, and weak points of each of your speaker systems. Thanks.

[BEC]

Bill,

The tapped inductor is an autotransformer. It should be at tap 4 for 3 db attenuation to the midrange horn. Moving it to another tap will attenuate it more. Tap 3 would be 6 db and tap 2 would be 9 db.

It is unlikely that anything was wrong with the autotransformer. I have never seen a bad one, but a bad solder connection is certainly a possibility.

At least some of the capacitors will be bad by now in the AAs and you won't hear the Khorns do what they are capable of until you at least have new caps in there.

Bob Crites

[esl_57]

The speakers have to be re-veneered Bruce and Im torn between a strict restoration and benign modifications. Things like changing to a cherry wood veneer and completely new x-over. Speaking of x-over, does anyone have a drawing? Its not so complex that I cant draw it out but the stenciling is no longer legible on the capacitors and Im too lazy to drop the inductors into a tank circuit to determine their value.J

The idea of re-manufacturing the original x-over with modern parts is attractive but replacing the original inductors with a quality air core coil will create a variable (the series resistance will be different (likely higher) than the original. Maybe I should replace the capacitors and just rewire the rest. Anyone ever removed the diodes in the tweeter circuit? They cant possible sound good.

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I dont expect the horns to sound better than the electrostatics <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" />Gary, just different.

A Putter is not better then a 9 Iron nor is my 300 mm f2.8 better than my 35 mm f1.4.

You have to choose the right tool for the job.

My musical tastes are so varied that no one speaker will satisfy me, the horns will (hopefully) cover my ZZ Top like cravings while the Quads cover the Loreena McKennitt end.

What I had read previously prepared me for the attenuation that would take place when I moved that lead over Bob. I didnt suspect a faulty inductor, the horn seems hot to me (likely due to the recessed bass) and I was wondering if pulling the horn back would help. Seems to me it just created a second imbalance so I just put it back. But the original symptom has not returned J

Are these horns ok sitting on a carpet or are they better off on the bare hardwood?

Thanks again folks!

Bill

[DrWho]

Hey cool, another McKennitt fan. Welcome to the forum.

The khorns do need to be sealed into the corners for the best bass response - some people go as far as installing pipe foam insulation tubing stuff to account for the slight bends in the wall.

And doesn't Klipsch sell an upgrade kit for the khorn? I forget how much it costs, but doesn't it come with all updated drivers and new crossover?

[Marvel]

Bill,
Many have copies of the various crossover schematics here. The crossover should have an identifier on it.

Lots of options on building crossovers, from 6db/octave to extreme slope (100db+).

Dean Wescott makes some (and redoes older ones).

Bob Crites makes some and also redoes older ones.

Al Klappenberger makes extreme slope models, as well as other models, (schematics are on his web site so you can build your own). He also makes a tractrix horn replacement for the mid horn and other goodies.

http://www.alkeng.com/

They all, good naturedly dig at each other's methods and beliefs. []

Bruce

[PrestonTom]

Congratulations on the K-Horns.

The "tapped inductor" you mentioned is actually an autotransformer and by swapping taps you have altered the overall output of the mid-range. Regarding your problem and I am only guessing, since you re-fastened the screws etc, it sounds like a flakey solder joint. But suspect you already knew that.

The sound will be different from the Quads and it will be difficult to say that one is better than the other. However, I am concerned about some of your comments on the sound. At high levels the K-horns should sound fantastic and the bass should be superb. The bass should be very clean, accurate and without distortion. sometimes when folks hear that kind of bass, they may judge it as being a bit thin (without the distortion). Another possibility, and a very likely one, is that the room is interacting with the speaker. The simple possibility is that the K-Horns are not snug in the corners. This will make a difference and there are many threads on this (search "pipe foam"). At high levels, an efficient horn system should be very lively and dynamic. It is not clear what is going on in your case. Again, I am guessing, but the cabinets are quite revealing of any distortion in any of the electronics. The amp does not need to be large, but it does need to produce a clean signal. Perhaps this is the culprit.

Regarding the crossovers. There are many ways to spend a great deal of money. If you are concerned that the caps have built up a series resistance due to aging, then the caps are easily replaced. The crossover you have is probably a type "A" and will have a single cap on the mid and a single cap on the high. You can get the Solen caps (a decent brand) for about $15 for the pair. Other options are available (re-designs and upgrades etc). The stock filters from that era are fairly simple. When I replaced my caps recently (24 year old cabinets). The difference was detectable, however it was slight. Mostly the high end was a bit "crisper". Although you will see testimonials that suggest upgrading the caps (controlling the mid and the high) will somehow improve the bass, etc, etc. Buyer beware... Certainly there are other options, where the crossover circuit itself is re-designed and the sound will be quite different. The popular re-designs are from ALK (2 different versions), John Albright's, and John Warren's. Klipsch also has a "kit" that includes a new crossover and some new drivers. There are also folks that will upgrade the existing crossovers with better parts or even some very fancy parts (examples are BEC and Dean W). Very few of us, certainly not me, have actually been able to do side-by-side comparisons of the various options. So it is hard to judge the nature and degree of improvement with each.... However, there are many, many testimonials...

I am interested in your situation because I also have K-horns in my room as well as panel speakers (Martin-Logan Aerius). They each do some things very, very well. I certainly can not choose between the two. Again, they have a very different sound.

Good Luck,

-Tom

[Deang]

There are also folks that will upgrade the existing crossovers with better parts or even some very fancy parts (examples are BEC and Dean W).

Bob will use better parts, but he won't touch the fancy parts unless I toss him one and he accidently catches it.

[BEC]

Good parts is good parts. Cost and fanciness is not part of the equation.

Bob

[Al Klappenberger]

ESL,

You might try wiggling the connection posts one each of the drivers in your speaker. I had a bad tweeter in one of my Belles years ago that cut in and out as I moved the terminal. At the time I was afraid to open it up. These days I would just fix it. Back then I exchanged it back to Klipsch.

Al K.

[Deang]

Good parts is good parts. Cost and fanciness is not part of the equation. Bob

Agree with the first part. Mostly agree with the second part.

[Marvel]

See what I mean? They kid each other all the time... although they are sometimes serious.

btw, Dean usually doesn't answer his email. []

Bruce

[esl_57]

>Hey cool, another McKennitt fan. Welcome to the forum.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />

Ya Mike, great pipes on that one. I get goose bumps when she cuts loose, the Quads do an amazing job with the human voice. My neighbor turned me on to The Holly Cole Trio the other day, NICE! recordings.

>The khorns do need to be sealed into the corners for the best bass response - some >people go as far as installing pipe foam insulation tubing stuff to account for the slight >bends in the wall.

I saw the application of that on the filter site that Bruce mentioned, I'll get some from the Depot on Saturday.

>Good parts is good parts. Cost and fanciness is not part of the equation.

I'm with you Bob, some of the networks that the fellow displayed on that filter site mentioned above, sported LITZ wire coils! I have no need for "Shaman Tested" electronic components, the "appropriately" engineered ones are good by me and if I'm interpreting Dean's response to your 2nd statement correctly, I too think a clean layout is important.

>You might try wiggling the connection posts one each of the drivers in your speaker. I >had a bad tweeter in one of my Belles years ago that cut in and out as I moved the >terminal. At the time I was afraid to open it up. These days I would just fix it. Back then I >exchanged it back to Klipsch.

That was part of the driver verification step in my initial troubleshooting Al. The symptom has not reappeared so the problem was either the one and only solder joint that I touched or there is a flaky capacitor in the high pass section that needed to be used. The speakers have been sounding smoother with use. (Still no competition for the Quads Tom :-)

Can anyone provide me with the x-over drawing for my network? it says "AA" on it.

Thanks!

[esl_57]

>Hey cool, another McKennitt fan. Welcome to the forum.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />

Ya Mike, great pipes on that one. I get goose bumps when she cuts loose, the Quads do an amazing job with the human voice. My neighbor turned me on to The Holly Cole Trio the other day, NICE! recordings.

>The khorns do need to be sealed into the corners for the best bass response - some >people go as far as installing pipe foam insulation tubing stuff to account for the slight >bends in the wall.

I saw the application of that on the filter site that Bruce mentioned, I'll get some from the Depot on Saturday.

>Good parts is good parts. Cost and fanciness is not part of the equation.

I'm with you Bob, some of the networks that the fellow displayed on that filter site mentioned above, sported LITZ wire coils! I have no need for "Shaman Tested" electronic components, the "appropriately" engineered ones are good by me and if I'm interpreting Dean's response to your statement correctly, I too thing a clean layout is important.

>You might try wiggling the connection posts one each of the drivers in your speaker. I >had a bad tweeter in one of my Belles years ago that cut in and out as I moved the >terminal. At the time I was afraid to open it up. These days I would just fix it. Back then I >exchanged it back to Klipsch.

That was part of the driver verification step in my initial troubleshooting Al. The symptom has not reappeared so the problem was either the one and only solder joint that I touched or there is a flaky capacitor in the high pass section that needed to be used. The speakers have been sounding smoother with use. (Still no competition for the Quads Tom :-)

[BEC]

Here is the AA schematic.

Bob Crites

[esl_57]

Wow, there is maybe $10 CDN worth of Solen Fast Caps.

Thanks Bob.

[Deang]

"... some of the networks that the fellow displayed on that filter site mentioned above, sported LITZ wire coils! I have no need for "Shaman Tested" electronic components ..."

Litz has a three-fold reduction in loss compared to solid cores at the frequencies they are used at in those networks -- it's measurable. As a series inductor in line with the midrange, they definitely allow more high frequency energy to pass -- it's audible. In your particular case, you have no use for them simply because your network has no bandpass (no series inductor/low pass) for the midrange -- the midrange is run full out, and the cut-off is determined by the limits of the driver.

As a QUAD listener, you might find more enjoyment from your Klipschorns by converting your AA network(s) to its predecessor -- the Type A. Same as the schematic above -- but only a single 2uF capacitor for the tweeter. The Type AA is better suited for higher volumes, and at the volume levels I think you typically listen at -- the Type A is much more engaging.

I think they call them "Fastcaps" because of how fast people grab their soldering irons to get them out after they put them in. The nice thing about the low part count is that one can go with some better caps and the project still be considered affordable. However, the Solens are much better than what you have in there now -- those caps are shot.