sheltie dave Posted October 18, 2006 Share Posted October 18, 2006 Cut Throat - Duke may be if he is RC. [] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garyrc Posted October 18, 2006 Share Posted October 18, 2006 The reduction in SPL with distance in a roomAverage vs peak levels re: 1w/1m levels The reduction in SPL with distance in a listening room (rather than in free air) is controversial and, of course, varies with room acoustics and room volume, not just distance. In the 1970s, JBL sought to provide an efficiency measure that would be useful to the average, not particularly technical listener. They came up with an average listening position (15 feet away from speaker in a so called typical room) figure that was 13 dB below the 1W / 1M figure, which they also used. So, the D130, one of their speakers that had a sensitivity of 103 dB at 1w at 1M without crossover (selected by me for this example for closeness to Khorn efficiency, but JBL just used the midrange at the time) was depicted as producing 90 dB at 1w, in the room @ 15 feet. Using this method, the Khorn would produce about 91 /92 dB with 1 watt, in JBL's room, @ 15 feet. The "average level" of my full orchestra music hovers around 80 to 90 dB in loudish passages -- probably very few use an average level of 104 dB (except with Rock)...BUT it's those peaks you gotta watch. They are 108, 110, sometimes 115 dB as read on a Rat Shack meter with funky Vu ballistics -- PWK told us that there were sometimes brief unread peaks 13 dB or more above what a waving Vu needle could register. That gives us 123 dB unread and extraordinarily brief peaks, with an average level of about 90 dB! The good news is that peaks that brief can sometimes pass without clipping, even if they as much as 10 dB (~~ coincidentally about 10 times the wattage) beyond the RMS power of a very good amp. So they say. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LousyTourist Posted October 18, 2006 Share Posted October 18, 2006 I for one have an 8 watt SET and will soon (well, in a month or so after it's been recapped) have a 100WPC SS beastie. Also, I seldom if ever listen to music at 100dB, more normally 80dB or so. I wonder what kind of headroom 8 watts leaves me at those more nominal listening levels.... could someone 'do the math' as my pea brain doesn't seem to take in the numbers well. LT Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrWho Posted October 18, 2006 Share Posted October 18, 2006 Most of the industry works on a 6dB maximum over and above the max RMS level... The RMS level is the maximum power handling where the device doesn't melt after a long period of time. The max level is the maximum power handling before mechanical failure occurs. RMS is heat limited and max is excursion limited. I don't think it fair to draw a correlation here between a speaker's nonlinear dynamic range and the linear dynamic range of music. And if I may bring up another point...assume for a second that amp A is considered to be flawed in some way and a user is considering amp B because it's considered to be less flawed - despite the fact that he already enjoys his amp A. If amp A is indeed flawed and the user enjoys his sound, then it implies that there is something upstream compensating for that flaw. If the user drops in amp B, then it should sound worse than amp A - especially if it's a better amp. But it's a paradox because if amp A is actually better than amp B, then the worse sound with amp B is not an indication of revealing the source equipment. The point being that straight up gear swapping doesn't work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Z4! Posted October 18, 2006 Share Posted October 18, 2006 The few folks here that keep calculating, and pushing the need for higher power amplifiers than SET amps can deliver, I don't have to Calculate ... all I have to do ...is watch the I.O.C. lites come on at 500 wpc on my Crown K-2...... where's that leave SET ..??? like 499 watt's behind ...???........[] [] [] Why does the anti-SET crowd always claim SETs are 1wpc? We understand you don't like 'em but you would do more to bolster your debate if you were honest in your attacks! It really only leaves them ~498.5 - 490 watts behind overkill! [] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LousyTourist Posted October 18, 2006 Share Posted October 18, 2006 that is one UGLY *** avatar. It gives me a headache just to look at it. Not at all easy on the eyes like MY avatar. LT Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duke Spinner Posted October 18, 2006 Share Posted October 18, 2006 that is one UGLY *** avatar. It gives me a headache just to look at it. Not at all easy on the eyes like MY avatar. LT Aaaahhh ...... Jealous ... Eh ...?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duke Spinner Posted October 18, 2006 Share Posted October 18, 2006 Why does the anti-SET crowd always claim SETs are 1wpc? We understand you don't like 'em but you would do more to bolster your debate if you were honest in your attacks! It really only leaves them ~498.5 - 490 watts behind overkill! [] I NEVER said ...I don't like SET ......[] itsa ....Tool, to listen with ...... just like the K-2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duke Spinner Posted October 18, 2006 Share Posted October 18, 2006 only leaves them ~498.5 - 490 watts behind overkill! [] It may be hard to belive, Z ..... but them 4430's want Every onenna them 500 watt's Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Z4! Posted October 18, 2006 Share Posted October 18, 2006 It may be hard to belive, Z ..... but them 4430's want Every onenna them 500 watt's What kinda SPLs you gettin' in what sized room hitting 500 watts? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duke Spinner Posted October 18, 2006 Share Posted October 18, 2006 105 ... the woofer in those is very inefficient Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Z4! Posted October 18, 2006 Share Posted October 18, 2006 105 ... the woofer in those is very inefficient There ya go... you otta try some Klipsch speakers sometime...hear watcha been missin' [A] Edit: And they are sooo much more efficient! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxg Posted October 18, 2006 Share Posted October 18, 2006 Most of the industry works on a 6dB maximum over and above the max RMS level... The RMS level is the maximum power handling where the device doesn't melt after a long period of time. The max level is the maximum power handling before mechanical failure occurs. RMS is heat limited and max is excursion limited. I don't think it fair to draw a correlation here between a speaker's nonlinear dynamic range and the linear dynamic range of music. And if I may bring up another point...assume for a second that amp A is considered to be flawed in some way and a user is considering amp B because it's considered to be less flawed - despite the fact that he already enjoys his amp A. If amp A is indeed flawed and the user enjoys his sound, then it implies that there is something upstream compensating for that flaw. If the user drops in amp B, then it should sound worse than amp A - especially if it's a better amp. But it's a paradox because if amp A is actually better than amp B, then the worse sound with amp B is not an indication of revealing the source equipment. The point being that straight up gear swapping doesn't work. Who, The point I was making is that 6 dB headroom is common in the industry - not that it is equivalent for a speaker and an amp. There are many amps out there with 6 dB too - I just chose to quote Klipsch as it is something we all have in common. As for the flawed amp in a compensating system theory - I dont buy it. That is it could happen but I think it would be VERY rare. Straight up gear swapping may or may not work - but I think the above reason would almost never be the reason for failure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duke Spinner Posted October 19, 2006 Share Posted October 19, 2006 . you otta try some Klipsch speakers sometime...hear watcha been missin' [A] And .... they drop so much detail ...! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Matthews Posted October 19, 2006 Share Posted October 19, 2006 You may like them more, less or the same. Max, very revealing! [] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Matthews Posted October 19, 2006 Share Posted October 19, 2006 This is a long thread. Pages 58-59 get more to the meat of the debate than just about anything else. Paul is right that the premise is wrong on recommended wattage. 20 watts is insufficient for the KHorn. If you are getting 110 dB from 20 watts, that is your peak dB. For higher peaks, you'd now be clipping with only a 20-watt amp. And it doesn't matter how anyone wants to soft-peddle "smooth" clipping, clipping is clipping is clipping IS BAD! Also, it was good to finally see a few others than just me give a very high damping factor the attention it deserves. I think a high damping factor is what cleans all the mud off of a good punch and gives the music its authority. Stormin described it well going from Marantz to QSC. That's the expected change. Our new friend from Germany also described it well just by his enthusiasm. Then, of course, we have the advocate of Thwack!!!!... with his 4430's. Dookie...... I wonder what the damping factor on the VRD's is. I'd be curious to find out. Guessing by the way they sounded, it should be high. Maybe the theory here can be tested. For those who are curious about the VRD's, the VRD's had every bit of the authority of my mega-watt Crown SS. They clip earlier, but at that level, we are talking insanely loud and beyond what you can stand while staying in the same room - except for maybe, one quick song. So, I don't think there is necessarily some huge trade-off between tubes and SS or "liquid" vs. "authority." If you are a tuber, I know you can still get the authority out of tubes. You just might pay a little more to do it. I have not compared various tubes, but I can definitely say the VRD's pack punch. There's some free advertisement for you, Craig. So, just out of curiosity, what's the damping factor in those VRD's? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lascaladan Posted October 19, 2006 Share Posted October 19, 2006 Hi all. I have been away from the forum for a while. While I find this post to be interesting, it still follows the "what I like" camp. Of course, if ss folks have not heard tubes or tube folks have not heard good ss, it is difficult to make comparisons. I have not heard the VRDs, but people are indicating that they do everything well. At some point, I would like to hear Mike Lindsey's, because he is just across town from me. I have always thought that tubes were "slower" in the bass than ss, having the ability, however to give great extension(high powered tubes such as Jadis,AR and the like. Not the 3 watters all speak of. Whether damping factor is what does this, I do not know. My Bryston 4B drove my Janis Woofers quite well, but using it full range was not the most pleasant for me. It is just what we like. System matching is also quite critical, as many of us has indicated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Matthews Posted October 19, 2006 Share Posted October 19, 2006 Hi all. I have been away from the forum for a while. While I find this post to be interesting, it still follows the "what I like" camp. Of course, if ss folks have not heard tubes or tube folks have not heard good ss, it is difficult to make comparisons. I have not heard the VRDs, but people are indicating that they do everything well. At some point, I would like to hear Mike Lindsey's, because he is just across town from me. I have always thought that tubes were "slower" in the bass than ss, having the ability, however to give great extension(high powered tubes such as Jadis,AR and the like. Not the 3 watters all speak of. Whether damping factor is what does this, I do not know. My Bryston 4B drove my Janis Woofers quite well, but using it full range was not the most pleasant for me. It is just what we like. System matching is also quite critical, as many of us has indicated. Hey, Dan. Go check out Mike's. You're lucky he's close. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxg Posted October 19, 2006 Share Posted October 19, 2006 "If you are getting 110 dB from 20 watts, that is your peak dB. For higher peaks, you'd now be clipping with only a 20-watt amp. And it doesn't matter how anyone wants to soft-peddle "smooth" clipping, clipping is clipping is clipping IS BAD!" How far away from the speakers are you measuring? If you are 4 meters away from a pair of Khorns: 116 @ 1 meter from one speaker = 116 @ 2 meters from a pair =110 at 4 meters so correct - but if you are closer (say 3 meters you will gain another 3 dB or so). Having said that you are talking about a 20 watt amp like that is the peak output. A 20 watt RMS amp with 6 dB headroom (80 watts therefore - for a short burst) will allow higher peaks. Therefore the C weighting on the ratshack you can listen to will vary with the dynamic range of the music in question. I think what you are actually saying is - it is not enough for me - which is fine. For those with tastes to lower volumes I think it would never be a problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coda Posted October 19, 2006 Share Posted October 19, 2006 This is a long thread. Pages 58-59 get more to the meat of the debate than just about anything else. Paul is right that the premise is wrong on recommended wattage. 20 watts is insufficient for the KHorn. If you are getting 110 dB from 20 watts, that is your peak dB. For higher peaks, you'd now be clipping with only a 20-watt amp. And it doesn't matter how anyone wants to soft-peddle "smooth" clipping, clipping is clipping is clipping IS BAD! Hey Jeff, if you're referring to this table, notice it says SPLs are average levels, with peaks being 10dB higher.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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