scott0527 Posted September 1, 2006 Share Posted September 1, 2006 At one of the meetings of the ACA (Audiophile Club of Athens) after the one at my house we had a live violinist come and play for us. The sound of the play was something of a shock for most of the attending audiophiles. It was far harsher and more in-your-face than I think most were expecting. Max, maybe you should have found a better violinist. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kev313 Posted September 1, 2006 Share Posted September 1, 2006 At one of the meetings of the ACA (Audiophile Club of Athens) after the one at my house we had a live violinist come and play for us. The sound of the play was something of a shock for most of the attending audiophiles. It was far harsher and more in-your-face than I think most were expecting. Max, maybe you should have found a better violinist. Well that's subjective (objectively speaking, of course). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coda Posted September 1, 2006 Share Posted September 1, 2006 When I read claims of a few ss amps available with tube-like sound, I'm presuming they're referring to smoothed over frequencies, not pin-point imaging or a layered soundstage. I'll suggest that more soundstage dimensionality = more accuracy. . and usually pretty nice sounding as well at this point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted September 2, 2006 Share Posted September 2, 2006 "Measurements can be both qualitative and quantitative...."` O.K. maybe you're saying that if something measures good, it points to the fact that it will produce "quality" sound, or sound "good" -- and that if something measures poorly it will probably sound bad. So the "qualitative" elements are implied by the "quantitative" measurements (numbers). However, most of us know from experience that good numbers don't always equate to a sound that is as, or more pleasing than something with lesser numbers. Excellent numbers say something is as right as right can be, but the ears don't always agree. "Both are equally important and you can't do qualititave aural measurements without an ear." Who's ears? People don't hear the same, and don't listen the same. People listen to different kinds of music, and the different genres aren't always recorded using the same miking techniques -- and of course the quality of the recordings in general are different too. As soons as the ears are brought in you can throw objectivity out the window. Everyone might agree that a certain thing sounds acceptable, or "good" -- but strong preferences will develop as the sonic signature is changed up as gear is rotated in and out of the system. So, some things will sound better to some than it does to others -- and opinions will be all over the map as too which sounds "better". Unrelated but related:) -- to many, things that measure the same (or close to the same) usually don't sound the same, while others just don't hear any difference whatsoever. "All it takes to be objective is to avoid opinion." Only the measurements are objective, as soon as the system is fired up and someone opens their mouth you're done with objectivity. "What is being missed in the accuracy debate is that accuracy is not the goal. Good sound is the goal." Definitely. If the music coming into your room doesn't sound pleasing to your ears what is the point in listening to it. I'm no more interested in listening to something that makes me twitch and grind my teeth than I am looking at examples of bad photography. "I'll suggest that more soundstage dimensionality = more accuracy. . and usually pretty nice sounding as well at this point." I was talking to Mdeneen on the phone the other night when this exact thing came up. I used the word "atmosphere" when describing what good tube gear brings to the table. There is an airy quality to the sound that makes the soundfield stretch out and envelope you. I think "accuracy" involves a lot of different elements -- how about dynamics. A nice soundfield without the intense transient information can be rather boring. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SilverSport Posted September 2, 2006 Share Posted September 2, 2006 Parrot, She's not sliding it around on the floor...she was floored by the sound of the mighty Klipschorn...'course, dropping that LP does it no good and the result is the same as you said... Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SET12 Posted September 2, 2006 Share Posted September 2, 2006 Well put! DeanG Tubes no matter PP or SET can do the job it maybe harder for a SET design to generate the dynamics but it can be done I have and others besides my own have done so. The level of which SET satisfaction does is ones own taste with SET's its often other things that are more important to the SET owners agenda and of course PP is not immune from poor dynamics either. SET12 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SET12 Posted September 2, 2006 Share Posted September 2, 2006 When I read claims of a few ss amps available with tube-like sound, I'm presuming they're referring to smoothed over frequencies, not pin-point imaging or a layered soundstage. I'll suggest that more soundstage dimensionality = more accuracy. . and usually pretty nice sounding as well at this point. Coda, More often it's warmth! It doesn't mean you have to give up anything! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coda Posted September 2, 2006 Share Posted September 2, 2006 More often it's warmth! It doesn't mean you have to give up anything! Warmth may be a relative term. With SS, would the amps be subtracting or adding something to gain warmth? Or does neutrality = warmth in this case. . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SET12 Posted September 2, 2006 Share Posted September 2, 2006 More often it's warmth! It doesn't mean you have to give up anything! Warmth may be a relative term. With SS, would the amps be subtracting or adding something to gain warmth? Or does neutrality = warmth in this case. . I don't equate this quality at all that way I will say great amps have a degree of it some might say that their should be a balance niether to much or to little I would rather error on to much then not enough as I couldn't listen to a thin amp and be involved with the music! I have a friend with a Crown DC300 and an Citation 24 amp the Crown came across to him as very univiting thin especially in the mids the Citation on the other hand is warmer fuller body and very inviting much like a Classe power amp that I once did a comparison with a company that does build great sounding SS equipment I might add I couldn't tell the Citation or the Classe apart from one another they were that close and very nice! And the Crown sits in his closet. SET12 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coda Posted September 2, 2006 Share Posted September 2, 2006 warmth = richness in this case. it's usually taken as a compliment when saying a ss amp has tube-like qualities. saying tube gear sounds like ss is usually taken as a slight. if that warmth also means lack of grain through the midrange to the upper frequencies, then it's getting very tube like. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SET12 Posted September 2, 2006 Share Posted September 2, 2006 warmth = richness in this case. it's usually taken as a compliment when saying a ss amp has tube-like qualities. saying tube gear sounds like ss is usually taken as a slight. if that warmth also means lack of grain through the midrange to the upper frequencies, then it's getting very tube like. I buy that! But SET's or PP tube can have solid state like bass, And if a SET does, thats a real plus especially at 10 watts that I have been complemented on numerous times by visitors. A bad SET design can sound lean and whimpy by design. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kev313 Posted September 2, 2006 Share Posted September 2, 2006 warmth = richness in this case. it's usually taken as a compliment when saying a ss amp has tube-like qualities. saying tube gear sounds like ss is usually taken as a slight. if that warmth also means lack of grain through the midrange to the upper frequencies, then it's getting very tube like. I buy that! But SET's or PP tube can have solid state like bass, And if a SET does, thats a real plus especially at 10 watts that I have been complemented on numerous times by visitors. A bad SET design can sound lean and whimpy by design. SET12, Can you elaborate a bit on your set design? I've heard and owned a number of SET amps (Wrights and Welbornes mainly), but have never heard SET bass sound like SS bass. Not that it was bad bass; what was there was quite good. It just wasn't all there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duke Spinner Posted September 2, 2006 Share Posted September 2, 2006 I have a friend with a Crown DC300.....very univiting thin especially in the mids SET12 That .... is a Very Poor Example the DC 300 was never meant to be a home stereo amplifier, not to mention a 30 year old design perhaps you should compare a Crown K, or Studio Reference Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parrot Posted September 2, 2006 Share Posted September 2, 2006 A bad SET design can sound lean and whimpy by design. You have mentioned that your own design is different than most of the other SET amps out there. Clearly the vast majority of praiseful posts on SET amps in this Forum's history are about the "lean and whimpy" designs, however. If we assume that your design is superior, I don't think the "lean and whimpy" designs deserve to be grouped with yours. Have you indeed heard a lot of "lean and whimpy" SET amps or are you basing that opinion on analysis of their circuits? During my last audition of SET at AudioKarmaFest06, there were two examples by the same manufacturer. The 15W one seemed pretty decent and was surely not the worst thing at the show. The flea-powered one was another matter. When we played the Great Gate of Kiev from Pictures at an Exhibition (Mussorgsky/Ravel), the amp fell on its face. It totally ran out of steam and could not manage to make the dynamic passages any louder. What should have been up, say, 15dB, stayed at the same level. Think of a low-powered car full of passengers trying to gain speed when it is halfway up a steep hill. The interesting thing to me was that another guy in the room at the same time, who personally owned the low-watt version, was in total denial about what we had just witnessed with our ears, and was going on about the magic blah blah blah BS of his low-powered amp. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SET12 Posted September 2, 2006 Share Posted September 2, 2006 warmth = richness in this case. it's usually taken as a compliment when saying a ss amp has tube-like qualities. saying tube gear sounds like ss is usually taken as a slight. if that warmth also means lack of grain through the midrange to the upper frequencies, then it's getting very tube like. I buy that! But SET's or PP tube can have solid state like bass, And if a SET does, thats a real plus especially at 10 watts that I have been complemented on numerous times by visitors. A bad SET design can sound lean and whimpy by design. SET12, Can you elaborate a bit on your set design? I've heard and owned a number of SET amps (Wrights and Welbornes mainly), but have never heard SET bass sound like SS bass. Not that it was bad bass; what was there was quite good. It just wasn't all there. Thank you for asking! I will PM you on it, You are just four hours away from me as is Dr. Who who I invited to hear my amps but he never replied he either didn't see my invite or maybe he thinks that its impossible that a SET could even remotely compete with SS I can only offer you the chance to hear one and one that can still go even further than it has even though people are startled already by it. SET12 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coda Posted September 2, 2006 Share Posted September 2, 2006 SET12, PM me on this too, please. Parrot, do you recall what speakers were used for the SET audition at AudioKarmaFest06? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SET12 Posted September 2, 2006 Share Posted September 2, 2006 I have a friend with a Crown DC300.....very univiting thin especially in the mids SET12 That .... is a Very Poor Example the DC 300 was never meant to be a home stereo amplifier, not to mention a 30 year old design perhaps you should compare a Crown K, or Studio Reference Duke I think its about the same age as my Citation I may be wrong on its exact model # but its not like the model that was out some 30 yrs ago! about 15 yrs old 150 watts/channel there are many people that have use a DC 300 it was popular when I bought a phase 400 and the Crown was several hundred more$ Never the less duke it is SS and not great sounding I can't comment on the other Crowns do you have experiance with Classe amps or even Krell? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jt1stcav Posted September 2, 2006 Share Posted September 2, 2006 Parrot, She's not sliding it around on the floor...she was floored by the sound of the mighty Klipschorn...'course, dropping that LP does it no good and the result is the same as you said... Bill Measurements mean very little to me since good numbers don't always necessitate good sound (just as others have expressed here). Having said that, I've enjoyed the reproduced sounds from my various audio systems over the years, with both good quality transistorized amps and PP, SEP, and SET tube amps. Each has its own flavor of sound reproduction, and the tube amps I've used may or may not be the most accurate as far as their measurements go. But they all have had really nice sounding, life-like qualities to my non-audiophile ears, and IMHO that's all that really matters to me in the long run. As far as babes and their vinyl-handling skills go...I bet I could enjoy the sound of this young lady's rig, as long as she's there flippin' the LPs in the same attire (or lack of) as depicted in this classic '60s photo.[] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kev313 Posted September 2, 2006 Share Posted September 2, 2006 Parrot, She's not sliding it around on the floor...she was floored by the sound of the mighty Klipschorn...'course, dropping that LP does it no good and the result is the same as you said... Bill Measurements mean very little to me since good numbers don't always necessitate good sound (just as others have expressed here). Having said that, I've enjoyed the reproduced sounds from my various audio systems over the years, with both good quality transistorized amps and PP, SEP, and SET tube amps. Each has its own flavor of sound reproduction, and the tube amps I've used may or may not be the most accurate as far as their measurements go. But they all have had really nice sounding, life-like qualities to my non-audiophile ears, and IMHO that's all that really matters to me in the long run. As far as babes and their vinyl-handling skills go...I bet I could enjoy the sound of this young lady's rig, as long as she's there flippin' the LPs in the same attire (or lack of) as depicted in this classic '60s photo.[] I'm with you. I'm currently running a Gaincard upstairs - great solid state! Downstairs I've got a biamped system with SS on the bassbins (MC250 - Thanks Barry!) and PP on the horns (EL84 based). I'd love to get another SET in the house for the downstairs system and have fun with the combinations! Nice pic BTW!!!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kev313 Posted September 2, 2006 Share Posted September 2, 2006 warmth = richness in this case. it's usually taken as a compliment when saying a ss amp has tube-like qualities. saying tube gear sounds like ss is usually taken as a slight. if that warmth also means lack of grain through the midrange to the upper frequencies, then it's getting very tube like. I buy that! But SET's or PP tube can have solid state like bass, And if a SET does, thats a real plus especially at 10 watts that I have been complemented on numerous times by visitors. A bad SET design can sound lean and whimpy by design. SET12, Can you elaborate a bit on your set design? I've heard and owned a number of SET amps (Wrights and Welbornes mainly), but have never heard SET bass sound like SS bass. Not that it was bad bass; what was there was quite good. It just wasn't all there. Thank you for asking! I will PM you on it, You are just four hours away from me as is Dr. Who who I invited to hear my amps but he never replied he either didn't see my invite or maybe he thinks that its impossible that a SET could even remotely compete with SS I can only offer you the chance to hear one and one that can still go even further than it has even though people are startled already by it. SET12 Looking forward to the PM. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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