Would you call tubes "accurate" or just really nice sounding?

[SET12]

...... about 15 yrs old 150 watts/channel there are many people that have use a DC 300 it was popular when I bought a phase 400 and the Crown was several hundred more$

Never the less duke it is SS and not great sounding I can't comment on the other Crowns do you have experiance with Classe amps or even Krell?

DC 300 Series 2 ..??

still, never meant to be a home "playback" amp

Phase 400 sound's great in the "sweet spot" of the S.O.A.....

'bout 1/3 power

try a Crown Studio Reference, D-75 series2, K model .. for decent SS sound

why do you think Crown publishes milliwatt I.M. and THD spec's ...??

the DC models .. have Ton's of negative feedback ... not great for a "playback" amp

Hmmmmnnnnn .....

any experience .... w/ Classe, Krell.......

wondering the same about You ... SET 12........[]

P.S.

research LeoK's review of the Crown D-45

before we continue on " SS vs. SET "

Duke,

The D-45 sounds like it is a different animal and thats good! Glad to hear that the it has some warmth I had a friend with that has had a couple of Classe's and my experiance with Krell has been limited with a local dealer with B&W's a nice combination.

I use Klipschs because of their high efficiency not because I think they are the best speaker in the world! They do alot of things very well with SET amps. If I wasn't using tubes I wouldn't even be useing Klipsch's at all its just a preferance of mine I've enjoyed solid state but I enjoy tubes even more and especially SET's for their harmonics and warmth I also can design and build them which is even more satisfaction and I am good at it. I personally will never likely own another SS product as I can build a new amp if I want and go on to other different tube designs such as an 833 project I'm glad you enjoy what you have as much as I enjoy what I have and thats what counts most!

SET12

[SET12]

Kev313, Coda, and Dr Who

You all should have PM's from me!

SET12

[Gilbert]

I all honesty I'd have to say that tubes sounds more life-like. Kinda like the music is there with you, in your stereo room.

So I'll have to go with "accurate", but I don't really like that description choice.

[Parrot]

Next time someone is over here playing the piano in my house, I'll tell him that he doesn't sound accurate, that he should sound like this record played over the Klipschorns with tube amplification.

[maxg]

Nice one Paul.

But bear in mind that when you are listening to a recording you are listening to a given performance at a given venue - and the sound of that venue will greatly influence the sound of said piano.

If you really want to compare the sound of your stereo to reality try to find some recording equipment and record the next piano player that visits. Then play it back over your stereo.

[edwinr]

Talking about the sweetness of tone discernable in certain amplifiers - some may confuse this tone with an amplifier's inability to reproduce music dynamics with any degree of accuracy. Some low powered tube and solid state amplifiers are guilty of this quality. I recall hearing some British s/s offerings a couiple of years ago (Creek and Sugden come to mind) that sounded very smooth and sweet. The reality of course was that these amplifiers, while sounding very nice, were actually delivering a McDonalds version of the music for consumption. You definitely weren't getting a three course meal for your money.

Now there's no reason why a properly designed tube amplifier should sound that much different from a s/s model. I've purchased my latest amplifiers based on sound quality and facilities. Not because they were tube or solid state. As an aside, my preamplifer just happens to be tube. My power amplifer is solid state. But I didn't buy it for that reason. I bought it because it was the best sounding, dynamic and at the same time, sweet sounding amplifier I could afford. Punching out 200 plus watts per channel, my power amplifer is sensational. It cruises along without effort, reproducing every nuance and detail that I could wish for, with a tonality that some may say, is tube like. Here's a pic...

[Duke Spinner]

well, I know MDeneen will agree with me here .....a good Tube amp .......

shouldn't sound like Anything ........

except Music

same for SS

tubes may have an edge as a preamp, since they are such good voltage amplifiers

but ya need some expensive Iron, to make a good tube Power amp

[SET12]

well, I know MDeneen will agree with me here .....a good Tube amp .......

shouldn't sound like Anything ........

except Music

same for SS

tubes may have an edge as a preamp, since they are such good voltage amplifiers

but ya need some expensive Iron, to make a good tube Power amp

Edwinr, First Class electronics to be sure lots of warmth for SS congrats I have always liked their products!

Duke I think think his amp is a CA200 correct me if I'm wrong Edwinr! It retailed I believe for some 3400$ new that buys alot of Iron for a DIY guy like me! But even so it is a great amp! I also Edwinr saw your C.E.C. Transport awesome! You have very good taste! Like I said in an earlier post somewhere my Citation 24 was so close sounding to the Classe I couldn't tell the two apart! It goes to say that the Citation 24 was very very good way better than most SS in its price class of under 1000$ and yet at least match the Classe!

SET12

[edwinr]

My power amp is essentially a CA200, but was marketed as a Model Twenty Five in Australia. The brand new purchase price in Australia would make you guys go pale. So I won't scare you. I reckon once you get into the higher end amplifiers, regardless of topology, there's less to separate the various designs based purely on differences in sound. I guess the amplifier designers have less restrictions on the quality of components they are able to employ so they are able to get much closer to that hoary old chestnut of 'straight wire with gain' (SWWG).

[Duke Spinner]

SET 12 ...

whatcher OP Xfmr fav...?/

hammond, magnaquest, ....what do you use to match those transmitting tubes up ...?

[SET12]

Hey Duke!

Thanks for asking! I use the Hammond 1642 SE I love this transformer! They are currently 500$ a pair. It's wieght is 28lbs for my 811-10 output tube running just about 100ma 1/3 of the 1642's capacity, I just had a 4 hr listening session it was great spent most of my time with the Rippingtons Wild Card, And Russ Freemans Drive CD Talk about Bass Geez it was good!

SET12

[Parrot]

Now there's no reason why a properly designed tube amplifier should sound that much different from a s/s model. I've purchased my latest amplifiers based on sound quality and facilities. Not because they were tube or solid state. As an aside, my preamplifer just happens to be tube. My power amplifer is solid state. But I didn't buy it for that reason. I bought it because it was the best sounding, dynamic and at the same time, sweet sounding amplifier I could afford. Punching out 200 plus watts per channel, my power amplifer is sensational. It cruises along without effort, reproducing every nuance and detail that I could wish for, with a tonality that some may say, is tube like. Here's a pic...

Looks like a serious amp, for sure, and too heavy for any stand to support, I bet []

How about posting a pic of your preamp?

[Duke Spinner]

Hey Duke!

Thanks for asking! I use the Hammond 1642 SE I love this transformer! They are currently 500$ a pair. It's wieght is 28lbs for my 811-10 output tube running just about 100ma 1/3 of the 1642's capacity, I just had a 4 hr listening session it was great spent most of my time with the Rippingtons Wild Card, And Russ Freemans Drive CD Talk about Bass Geez it was good!

SET12

is this configured like a Berning Siegfried, or you got some other trick up yer sleeve ...??

[Jeff Matthews]

After spending a few good hours doing a swap between SS components and tube components:

1. VRD's w/Fisher tube pre and Jolida CD;

2. Crown w/Fisher tube pre and Jolida CD;

3. Crown w/Yamaha SS pre and Jolida CD;

4. Crown w/Yamaha SS pre and HK SS CD;

5. VRD's w/Yamaha SS pre and Jolida CD;

6. VRD's w/Yamaha SS pre and HK SS CD.

we isolated every component, and the difference was only noticeable between the pre-amps. If you wanted to say there was a difference in the other components, you'd have to actually guess that "maybe" there was a difference. The difference between the pre-amps was noticeable - but not like night and day. The tubes take some of the edge out of the highs. But I found that to be the case only between the pre-amps.

I am still not convinced that you can spend enough money and go through enough components to find a "superior" platform. A good tube is as good as a good SS.

If anyone wants to tell me why it was not fair to use VRD's, Fisher and Jolida as tube references, then, I'm all ears. But many on this forum have said VRD's, Fisher and Jolida were all very reputable brands of tube components. Since that was said, I did not feel my Crown, Yamaha and HK were out of their league, and that the tube brands to which I was comparing would be tell-tale of any difference there is supposed to be.

In fact, the never-ending argument/debate itself is proof that this whole thing must be a myth.

[jacksonbart]

After spending a few good hours doing a swap between SS components and tube components:

1. VRD's w/Fisher tube pre and Jolida CD;

2. Crown w/Fisher tube pre and Jolida CD;

3. Crown w/Yamaha SS pre and Jolida CD;

4. Crown w/Yamaha SS pre and HK SS CD;

5. VRD's w/Yamaha SS pre and Jolida CD;

6. VRD's w/Yamaha SS pre and HK SS CD.

we isolated every component, and the difference was only noticeable between the pre-amps. If you wanted to say there was a difference in the other components, you'd have to actually guess that "maybe" there was a difference. The difference between the pre-amps was noticeable - but not like night and day. The tubes take some of the edge out of the highs. But I found that to be the case only between the pre-amps.

I am still not convinced that you can spend enough money and go through enough components to find a "superior" platform. A good tube is as good as a good SS.

If anyone wants to tell me why it was not fair to use VRD's, Fisher and Jolida as tube references, then, I'm all ears. But many on this forum have said VRD's, Fisher and Jolida were all very reputable brands of tube components. Since that was said, I did not feel my Crown, Yamaha and HK were out of their league, and that the tube brands to which I was comparing would be tell-tale of any difference there is supposed to be.

In fact, the never-ending argument/debate itself is proof that this whole thing must be a myth.

Nicely put and I did pick out granny, need I remind you. All this talk about amps.. but the speakers and room make all (ok 89.9999%)of the difference.

[Jeff Matthews]

Hey, JB. Just telling it like it is. And.... I still gotta know. How in the Heck did you pick out "Granny?" That still boggles me....

[SET12]

Hey Duke!

Thanks for asking! I use the Hammond 1642 SE I love this transformer! They are currently 500$ a pair. It's wieght is 28lbs for my 811-10 output tube running just about 100ma 1/3 of the 1642's capacity, I just had a 4 hr listening session it was great spent most of my time with the Rippingtons Wild Card, And Russ Freemans Drive CD Talk about Bass Geez it was good!

SET12

is this configured like a Berning Siegfried, or you got some other trick up yer sleeve ...??

Duke,

You have a PM.

Berning Siegfried I am not familiar with the design.

[kev313]

Hey Duke!

Thanks for asking! I use the Hammond 1642 SE I love this transformer! They are currently 500$ a pair. It's wieght is 28lbs for my 811-10 output tube running just about 100ma 1/3 of the 1642's capacity, I just had a 4 hr listening session it was great spent most of my time with the Rippingtons Wild Card, And Russ Freemans Drive CD Talk about Bass Geez it was good!

SET12

is this configured like a Berning Siegfried, or you got some other trick up yer sleeve ...??

Duke,

You have a PM.

Berning Siegfried I am not familiar with the design.

SET12, Thanks for the message. THAT was some interesting reading...looks like you have some really interesting developments of ideas borrowed from some of the best.

I've only heard the 811 in a Wavac design and it didn't really light my fire. I would very much like to hear your amps some day.

[Audio Flynn]

After spending a few good hours doing a swap between SS components and tube components:

1. VRD's w/Fisher tube pre and Jolida CD;

2. Crown w/Fisher tube pre and Jolida CD;

3. Crown w/Yamaha SS pre and Jolida CD;

4. Crown w/Yamaha SS pre and HK SS CD;

5. VRD's w/Yamaha SS pre and Jolida CD;

6. VRD's w/Yamaha SS pre and HK SS CD.

we isolated every component, and the difference was only noticeable

between the pre-amps. If you wanted to say there was a difference

in the other components, you'd have to actually guess that "maybe"

there was a difference. The difference between the pre-amps was

noticeable - but not like night and day. The tubes take some of

the edge out of the highs. But I found that to be the case only

between the pre-amps.

I am still not convinced that you can spend enough money and go

through enough components to find a "superior" platform. A good

tube is as good as a good SS.

If anyone wants to tell me why it was not fair to use VRD's, Fisher

and Jolida as tube references, then, I'm all ears. But many on

this forum have said VRD's, Fisher and Jolida were all very reputable

brands of tube components. Since that was said, I did not feel my

Crown, Yamaha and HK were out of their league, and that the tube brands

to which I was comparing would be tell-tale of any difference there is

supposed to be.

In fact, the never-ending argument/debate itself is proof that this whole thing must be a myth.

I do not remember anyone raving about Fisher tube preamps. Blueberry, BAT or CJ would have been a better choice.

4. Crown w/Yamaha SS pre and HK SS CD

If this option seems the same to you as the rest of the options; congrats you are done spending money.

Swapping all those components in a few hours would not be an

educational or enjoyable experience for me. Been tortured in that

manner before.

[maxg]

Jeff,

I see a logic failure in there somewhere.

Let us take a system as being the sum of various parts, in no particular order:

The room.

The speakers.

The source.

The amplification and pre-amplification.

Anciliary parts (power, cables etc.)

The sound that said system produces is a result of all of the above working together.

So let us now imagine that we have a working system, the question every audiophile wants to know the answer to is, how do I improve my sound?

What your experiment has proven is, as far as I can see, that it is not the amplification that is the limiting factor on the quality of the sound you experience.

To get a "night and day" change you need to find that limiting factor. It is possible that you have maxed out and there isn't one - I have just never found that to be the case in any system I have ever come across, but that does not mean it is impossible - just unlikely.

To conclude that all amplifiers sound much the same at a given level is, therefore, in my opinion, an unsound one. They might in one system but in another they really can make a huge difference. This is something I have experienced in my own system - much to my surprise as it happens.

Think of the audio chain like a production line for cars. If my paint shop can handle 5 cars a day and the production line can output 20 cars per day for painting upgrading the production line to 25 cars per day is not going to make a great deal of difference.