GLUE ????

[Wrench722]

I have read all kinds of pro and cons on diffrent types of glue for glueing plywood together. So I am looking to the wise ones of the forum. First of all I see that inside of a Klipsch speaker something that looks like a heated glue. I would like know what is and how can I get some? Would it be the best thing to use on plywood? I have a lot of input on Elmer's Professional Carpenter"s Wood Glue and Titebond III Ultimats Wood Glue and a little about Gorilla Glue. Witch is going to be the best to use on plywood?[8-)]

[colterphoto1]

that didin't work so well long term so it was discontinued. I think the guys use standard woodworkers glue or gorilla glue- NOT the holt melt like was used in the KLF series.

M

[capo72]

I use Titebond II with good results.

Jeremy

[WMcD]

I use Titebond II also. And also with good results. It dries to a tough plastic which will fill a bit of a gap. Of course one should not have gaps but I believe this aspect creates a good air-tight seal in any case. It cleans up with water.

In my view, hot melt glue is not good for projects requiring strength or where there there are large areas to join.

Gorilla glue foams and needs some moisture to get working. I used it on a project where I had to fill a gap. I tried it once on plywood and the foaming action looked so bad I did not continue. It is harmful to skin. Difficult to clean up.

Gil

[Wrench722]

colterphoto1

It looks like they used the hot stuff on my RWS-15. So now they are useing just standard woodglue? What are you calling standard woodglue?

If I use standard woodglue then what would be good for sealing?

[Deang]

Use the Titebond III Ultimate -- because it is. Use a wet sponge or cloth to wipe away excess. Use clamps or screws until the glue sets. IOW's, follow the instructions.

I don't understand your question about sealing. What part are you trying to "seal" that the woodglue wouldn't?

[DrWho]

Nothing beats wood glue for wood. I know Klipsch was just using normal wood glue in the factory during the last pilgrimage - I think it might be a special blend though because they use a lot of pressure during the sealing process. I forget.

All I know is that I've used normal Elmer's wood glue on all my wooden projects and the plywood comes apart before the joint breaks.

[Groomlakearea51]

Me and my fiberglass buddy (he does our plywood, resin and other wood jobs on our agency boats, and the bazillion dollar boats that float around south Florida) have experimented with a number of glues in the Heresy & Klipchorn restoration/ refinishing projects as of late. The caveat for us here is temperature and humidity, so bear with us and keep this in mind. Our problem is (always... 90 degree temeratures and 90 percent humidity, 90 percent of the time).

We found that "gorilla glue" works best in very small amounts for say, bead on bottom of internal bracing. We've tried a number of commercial grade wood glues on panels, currently we've found that Loctite Woodworx works very well, and seems to be about as close to the "yellow stuff" used in 77-85 Heresy's and K'horns.

That being said, and after readin' on the forum somewhere about the bass bin sealing on K'horns to prevent "leakage", we sat down and looked at the glues specifically used on Heresy's. We noted that on H-I's, it was fairly "hard", and on H-2's it seemed to be almost pliable, even after aging. We did find that on every cabinet "failure" we looked at, the glue had simply dried out and thus.... Humidity plays a part here; high humidity over time will cause panel separation or warpage; once that starts, it's just a matter of time before the glue flakes out and bites the big one.

We tried a number of glues that, while after 24-48 hours was cured, also had that "rubbery" feel to the fingernail. We ended up with Loctite as the first choice and Elmers as the second choice. A furniture guy who also contributes to the projects at hand recommended a number of commercial "yellow" glues. But what was interesting, is that he said as long as it's designed for permanent wood bonding, the brand may not really be an issue.

As far as "sealing", especially with the Heresy project, after the final assembly, we ended up doing exactly like it appears Klipsch did on the original junk cabinets we are trying to resurrect... Bondo... on all gaps on the internal braces where they will flush to the motor board and rear panel. We then applied Loctite in a small bead along all brace and panel joints.

Read somewhere in a forum post about "pressure" testing via the terminal hole(s). Tried it and almost destroyed a cabinet. It held air at about 2 psi for about 30 seconds, and when we vented it, it vented.... Analysis... It worked.

The key we found in all of our 'foolin' around is to first, apply enough glue, clan up the "queezins", and allow all glue to dry completely, and if we are replacing a panel, keep it clamped for at least 48 hours. But then again, it's Florida and the temps and humidity play a key role in this stuff.

We also found that using new closed cell foam gasket strip, or a thick "Felpro" gasket on the access panels also goes a long way in proper sealing. The foam type, especially here in the Sunshine State..., will deteriorate over time and leave a sticky mess, but using Felpro gasket material (and custom cutting it) works very well, compresses perfectly to any imperfections in the plywood substrate, and in a few years, it can be easily removed, surface areas can be cleaned, and a new gasket applied. This is what I've done with my K'horn bass bins. Felpro is (like Bondo..., found at your automotive parts store) in rolls and is relatively cheap.

Hope this helps.

[WMcD]

GLA brings up some good points. And others have made good contributions, too.

I have not used Titebond III but will look for it next time around.

It is probably fair to say that you have to pick your glue for the job at hand. Nothing is best for everything.

If working with a wood and fiberglass boat structure below the waterline, that takes some high tech stuff.

The most water-like Superglue is best if you have to get it into a thin crack. Capillary action will draw it in. There is some potential for using it as a temporary glue because nail polish remover, acetone, will disolve it. Our women friend know that. Superglue is used to paste on finger nail extensions.

I used Gorilla glue while making up polycyliners. Long story there. However, the Masonite arch contacts the L formed the back board and side cleat at only two lines, i.e. the edges of the Masonite. So I was able to first flood the joint with water, and then put in a bead of Gorrila glue. It foamed up to make a little in-place batten attached to each piece and running the lenght of the joint. In my case, four feet.

For new plywood, or old clean plywood, yellow glue like the Titebond family or Elmer's make a bond as strong as the wood. If you make a butt joint, you can stress it to failure but it is wood breaking. If this butt joint is not strong enough you need a batten to redistribute forces.

There was some question about sealing the joint. Titebond II is good. At least it gives me peace of mind regarding an air-tight seal. When I use it, there is naturally residue around the nozzle of the bottle. It does not adhere well to the plastic bottle. You can peel it off. It is not as rubbery as RTV, but it does bend. I will run a bead into any joint and force it in with a finger.

On some projects I've gone over the joint with RTV (room temperature vulcanizing) bathtub calk. Probably more than is needed.

I do agree we've got a problem with seals at the hatches of our speakers. Window sealing foam is close to the mark but might deteriorated. I've been using Moretite as a temporary measure, knowing that I'll be openning up the hatch pretty soon.

Best,

Gil

[Jay481985]

surprisingly titebond III ultimate woodglue has a stronger adhesion then gorilla glue per volume. Also its a lot cheaper.

[Wrench722]

DeanG

The part about sealing is were I guess if you don't make smooth cuts and the glue does not fill it all the way. It is like I have seen people useing things like Dap and silcone to seal a box even after it has been glued together?

Has any one here ever used stuff call Liquid Nails?

[Jay481985]

liquid nails works but wood glue is fine. If you want to make sure the seal is sealed good you may use silicon afterwards but make sure all the urea smell (the piss smell) is gone before you put in the speakers or sub as the urea attacks the rubber butyhl. Use a fan and a few days to dry it out completely

[Groomlakearea51]

Jay referred to probably one of the best points in regards to this. Time.... You have to let anything glued, filled, painted, etc. sufficient time to dry out. Fans surely help, but temperature and humidity are the big factors.

I've tried silicone before on other non-speaker wood project, but with mixed results. Greatest drawback with silicone down here is it "peels" after age. If you get any on a surface that will be painted or stained, it's a disaster because it contaminates the wood and the stain, lacquer, paint, etc. won't stick.

I asked a construction carpenter about silicone and he told me that the greatest problem with using it is expansion, contraction, and humidity in wood. Wood expands and contracts, the silicone does not. He does love Liquid Nails... It is the construction carpenter's best friend. It will stick anything to anything..... dries like a rock, and is not affected by our 4-5 month monsoon season....

Wrench also brought up a very good point about straight edges, cuts, etc. as they relate to sealing. If the pieces to be glued are not relatively "exact" (or at least fairly close), then there's going to be a lot of work with Bondo, Loctite, Titebond, etc. We had to re-cut one of the H-I project's battens/ braces twice before we learned our lesson well. We ended up using a precision "chop" saw and cutting them to exact size plus about 1/2 mm. Then we lightly sanded the excess away until we had that exact, slight "interference" fit.

One of the things that really helps with glueing and making sure things stay put (and also seal properly) is a staple gun. I made the investment in a good quality "finishing" staple gun similar to what Klipsch uses. Uses 9/32" crown staples, shoots 3/4" to 1.5". It's been a fantastic tool for the H-I project to make sure that the braces stay aligned over time, and makes sure the final sealing works. Only drawback is if you don't have the brace/ batten perfectly aligned, you may end up cutting another one...

We also "got smart" when replacing several panels and the braces. Before breaking out the glue pot and stapler,.... we constructed an outer frame to make things remain exactly "square" until the cabinet had been glued, stapled, clamped, etc for at least 24 hours.

I also made an "alignment tool" out of several pieces of 3/4 square birch scrap. Each of the four pieces "sticks" out from another piece to a specified distance. I apply the glue, used the tool to position the brace exactly left/ right and in/out, and then staple from the center out and wipe off the "squeezins".

Interesting observation on sealing is warped wood. This weekend is another H-I project "motor" board weekend... This is however, the second time round. First time, black laquer primer (Valspar/OPEX - like Klipsch) was applied to front face. 24 hours later, the panels were ever so slightly warped! and the slight "interference" fit was no longer there for a good seal. Had to cut new ones and that is a royal pain!! This time I primed both sides and voila! No warpage, and drops in perfect with that nice "clunk" sound with only finger taps all round.

Local "expert" resources have become very important lately. I've made friends with the cabinet maker, the paint people, the wood flooring guy, the construction carpenters, etc. A good source for sealing and a potential product to do it could be your local air conditioning contractor. In the A/C business, a sealed enclosure is a "religious" thing. A good friend is an installer and he told me about a product used on ducting. It is "air tight" and will expand or contract with the ducting in the different temps. It looks like a putty, or Bondo, and dries hard and is paintable. It's called "mastic", it's expensive, usually comes in gallons, but unlike "bondo", requires no "two part" mixing. According to "Mr. Mechanical", it can be found at Home Depot, etc.

Glueing, glue types and generally sticking two pieces of wood together can be a science project. I've noticed that while everyone has a favorite, everyone seems to agree that the best thing to do is "try it" on scrap wood and go from there.

[JJkizak]

My patternmaker used Elmers mixed with some sawdust of the existing plywood to maintain the proper color. This was clamped with vigorous pressure until dry. It would stand up to very small run plastic vacum forming production. I have found also that small cloth type fibreglass resin kits will "nail wood together for eternity" , well almost. Hot glue would probably do a very nice job of sealing. Accurate cuts are the ticket here. My patternmaker would spend hours making super benches, guides, and checking for accuracy and when making angle miter cuts would set them for about 45.5 degrees so the clamping would mash them together. He always did everything perfect and I would always marvel at the results.

JJK

[jacksonbart]

I stopped sniffing it in the 7th grade, couldn't tell you.

[Jay481985]

Oh I forgot, out of all the adhesives we talked about, the adhesive will not be the weakest link. Most of them you can glue two pieces of wood and take a hammer and try and break the joint but the wood will crack and break first!

[Wrench722]

Guys thank you all for the input.[]

[WMcD]

To answer 772's question.

There are several types of glue sold under the Liquid Nails trademark.

The original is construction glue which comes in caulking tubes. I suppose it is used to stick on siding and glue down flooring. It is like putty or caulking.

I saw Liquid Nails at HD in tooth paste sized tube. It turned out to be similar to white carpenter's glue. Indeed it was labeled "for wood."

Gil

[Erland]

I use the the stuff that has become most European Woodworkers favourite the last couple of years.

"TECH7"

I did a test, and the plywood goes apart before the glue let's go. Yet it stays flexible like rubber.