Fact or Fiction?

[Raider]

A few weeks ago I was auditioning a pair of RF62's and remarked to the salesman that I really liked the Klipsch speakers I had heard, but had noticed that they didn't seem to image as well as some other speakers. He said "Wait a minute", and proceeded to toe in the speakers at nearly 45 degrees (they had been pointing pretty much straight forward). He said that he had heard Paul Klipsch speak at the store several years earlier, and that something Klipsch felt strongly about was that the speaker be placed so that the side of the horn closest to the wall be parallel to it. Indeed, the image locked in and was rock solid, and well defined after he finished. He went on to say that this orientation took advantage of the horn's directionality and eliminated most unwanted reflection off of the side wall, along with its detrimental effect on imaging. In thinking about it, this is pretty much the way the horns are oriented in a Klipshorn.

i certainly couldn't argue with the results, and will likely use this as at least a starting point to orient any Klipsch speakers I buy. But I am curious as to whether or not Mr. Klipsch was known to feel strongly about this orientation.

[colterphoto1]

"He went on to say that this orientation took advantage of the horn's

directionality and eliminated most unwanted reflection off of the side

wall, along with its detrimental effect on imaging. In thinking about

it, this is pretty much the way the horns are oriented in a Klipshorn."

I don't know about PWK's thoughts on this, but there are a lot of us who LIVE by this creed. Keeping the horns off the side walls is critical and of course natural with the Khorns. This is what we preach to LS and CW users, it makes sense that it work for all speakers equally as well.

Michael

[TheEAR]

One thing is proven,any horn loaded speaker(even if the horn is only used for the tweeter)will have vastly improved imaging and will be focused when toed in.Horns are wave guides and to say tie in has not a major effect is to be deaf and ignore the benefits.

Not just horn speakers,direct radiating speakers using dome tweeters also will benefit,less,much less than horns but it does help.

All my speakers are toed in,and all my horn loaded have a toe in so the tweeter fires at the ears.

[oldtimer]

As far as feeling strongly about it, I would say yes. Strong enough to recommend it in the owner's instructions.

[Hardhead]

That's one of the things Bell Labs found out in the 1930's when they did their landmark experiments on the stereo effect. PWK was well versed in the Bell Labs work and often quoted parts of it, especially the requirement of 3 channels for a realistic stereo effect.

[Jay481985]

I toe my rf-83 in because they are 8 feet apart and i sit about 1 feet away and in between them. Critical listening I am sitting on my bed inbetween the speakers and 8 feet back.

[maxg]

Does Toe-in have an effect - YES.

Did Paul Klipsch recommend it - no idea.

Does its effect vary from room to room - YES.

Further,

I run my own home built speakers at the moment. I actually adjust the toe in according to the scale of the work I am listening to.

For small scale, intimate settings - such as a trio or a quartet I find I like quite a lot of toe in. For larger works - such as Berlioz' Requiem I prefer the setup with almost no toe in at all.

This works in my room and for my listening. I have the speakers about 9 foot apart but still a good 6 feet from the side walls. As I sit 9 feet from the speakers with a further 7 feet behind me toeing out does not introduce deliterious effects other than a foreshortening of the soundstage depth.

Running with the speakers relatively flat has the benefit of adding to the width of the soundstage. In the above mentioned work there are usually 2 orchestras and a choir (Berlioz was obsessed with size - and the idea of really filling a large Church with sound). You need the additional width to fit them all in [] .

[colterphoto1]

I toe my rf-83 in because they are 8 feet apart and i sit about 1 feet away and in between them. Critical listening I am sitting on my bed inbetween the speakers and 8 feet back.

Heck, them is just BIG HEADPHONES Jay!

[WS65711]

I toe my rf-83 in because they are 8 feet apart and i sit about 1 feet away and in between them.

In other words, you use 'em like giant headphones???

edit: oops, I see colter already made this observation . . .

[Daddy Dee]

Raider,

Thanks for the post on your experience. I won't be of any help with the technical aspects of your question, though what you describe certainly makes sense.

What I am excited about is your experience with this Klipsch authorized dealer. Mostly what I see posted about these folks is a disappointing experience for one reason or another.

Kudos to this fellow and his store.

I'd sure be interested to know the name and location of the store. This guy knows what he's got is good.

[Raider]

HiFi Buys in Nashville, TN.

Salesman is Paul Borasky. This is an independent store, NOT part of a chain of stores elsewhere under the same name. The Nashville store's use of the name predates the chain by several years. I have bought gear from them off and on for about 25 years. Highly recommended and worth the drive if you are in the middle Tennessee and southern Kentucky area. They have been very patient and helpful on several different occasions in helping me narrow down my selection within the Reference line. as a bonus they are very competitive in pricing.

[Raider]

As far as feeling strongly about it, I would say yes.  Strong enough to recommend it in the owner's instructions.

I'll take that as advocacy. Do you know if this Is this true for the entire Klipsch line or just specific models?

[toddvj]

...was that the speaker be placed so that the side of the horn closest to the wall be parallel to it.

I understand toeing in the speakers, but can't understand what is meant by the above statement.

[Raider]

...was that the speaker be placed so that the side of the horn closest to the wall be parallel to it.

I understand toeing in the speakers, but can't understand what is meant by the above statement.

You could imagine or draw a line of the average angle of the side of the tweeter horn. The speaker would be placed or toed in so that this line would be parallel to the wall the speaker is closest to.

[IndyKlipschFan]

If done right, with the right recording.... in stereo.... You will SWEAR there is a center channel on too. I have walked up to look and hear several times shaking my head in amazement it is not on... and smiling cause the recording engineer put it in the mix that way. Who ever it is..... is singing right dead center in front of me.. I am telling you it is scary and amazing at the same time.

[Fish]

I used to do this all the time.I get someone to stand by my listening position,ask"can you hear the center speaker from hear?"They always say "sure can"then I have em' walk toward it,when they get there and it's not on they'll say"it just went off".That's when I explain about proper set up.

[Jay481985]

I toe my rf-83 in because they are 8 feet apart and i sit about 1 feet away and in between them. Critical listening I am sitting on my bed inbetween the speakers and 8 feet back.

Heck, them is just BIG HEADPHONES Jay!

HAHAHA more like forward headphones......... I have them toed in maybe 30 degrees