Rebuild AA's or Upgrade?

[mark1101]

Dean, you are welcome....

Randy, smart move.

I'm really excited about the new ES networks but one thing this forum probably doesn't need is another network review. Many folks have these, and we are just joining the crowd. I'm sure I won't be able to keep quiet about it though....so I'll apologize to everyone now. I'll try to give them a good listen first.

Notice I bought the budget bottom end boards equivalent to the AK-3 bottom cross but with upgraded components. Although I have not actually heard the AP boards yet, I have heard the ES5800 before. From my experience all the issues have been on the mid and top end and I went this route to get into ES nets sooner with the ability to upgrade directly to the ES bottoms later if need be. Maybe these will be all I need. I'll find out tonight.

[JohnA]

It isn't surprising that your 1984's sound

harsh in the upper frequencies compared to the 1979's. The AA

network you put into the 1984's wasn't designed for the non-Alnico

K-55-V or K77-M combination in there, which is 2-3 dB louder

than the Alnico K-55-V and K-77 combination. Consequently, the

mid and upper range is too loud and sounds "harsh."

Actually, Bob Crites published some graphs here that showed the

K-55-V and K-55-M were of essentially identical efficiency. Their

response curves are different enough that they will sound different,

but the differences are in the "flavor" class.

The Type AL crossover didn't last long. It has some response

EQ in it that causes it to ring and sound miserable. Al

Klappenberger's crossovers work equally well with either the -V or the

-M. I've run them in both '81 and '87 La Scalas. '81 was

the last year for the K-55-V.

Comparisons of the T-35/K-77/K-77-M show even less variation and

usually lack the HF extension the K-77-M is supposed to have.

these tweeters carry a 105 dB/w/m rating and peaks higher. The

rest of the system runs 104. The type AA crossover has a

deliberately lossy tweeter high-pass to knock the tweeter down about 2

dB. This is why I and a lot of other people like the Type AA

Xover.

My recommendation is new caps for the Type AA and removal of the

KLiP tweeter protection unless they will be used in a pro environment

and a complete replacement for the Type AL.

[tidmack]

Mark,

I just read Peter Z's thread about the K77. Much of what he says rings true for me too. I too really like that '70s Klipsch sound and the '84s sound harsh to me or "hot" as I think Peter said. I'm gathering that my best options include swapping to Bob's tweeters and/or getting a pair of Al's extreme slope networks. Both of those options would require a lot of thought on my end because I'd probably lose financially if I didn't like either setup. I can at least justify rebuilding the networks in the '79s since they haven't been touched in 27 years. I think I'll have to sit on this one for a bit. . .

Jeff

[Deang]

I'm naturally curious about your room, gear, listening habits and musical tastes. How far you sit from the speakers and how loud you listen are important factors.

[Daddy Dee]

Jeff,

If you decide to refresh your caps to factory spec, one little tweak you might be interested to try is to make them convertible from Type AA to Type A. This would be done by having some alternate leads on the crossover to take the zener diodes out of the circuit for Type A or to put them back in the circuit for type AA. That's an easy switch to convert and the cost is next to nothing.

The type A crossover gives up tweeter protection, but that works o.k for most folks, I think.

[tidmack]

Good question Dean, I bet that info. will help. My speakers are in the corners of the long wall of my living room that measures appx. 13' X 20', with 8' ceilings. One corner is nice, the other consists of two doors that aren't used very often. Once in a while that speaker in the bad corner moves over about 3' into the long wall so I can open the door behind it. I like the sound better with that speaker in the corner, so I try to keep it there if I can.

My listening position is against the other long wall, just about centered from the two speakers. My room has hardwood floors with no rug, a love seat and sofa for furniture. Otherwise, there's a fireplace along one short wall and end tables next to the sofa and love seat.

My window treatments are minimal, with basic blinds and medium weight curtains across the top to cover the tops of the blinds.

Between the two speakers on the 20' wall, there is a 10' window that's about 5' tall. My rack and TV are housed there.

A Klipsch Ultra sub resides near each LaScala (on the same long wall as the rack and TV). . .the subs sit between the window edge and the corner where each speaker is. There's a sub on each side, they're not stacked. . .yet.

I rarely get to log on at home, but I will "try" to post a pic or two this weekend. The room has an openess about it that I like, but probably would benefit from a rug on the floor.

I tend to listen to a lot newer alt. country, americana, type music. But, I listen to a decent amount of 60s, 70s, 80s RnR, 50s and early 60s soul, and even some rap.

80% of the time, I listen at comfortable, easy to talk while listening, levels. But, I do like to crank it up from time to time. The meters on my Mac 2105 will bounce into the 10 watt range or so. The louder the music, the more the '84s bother me. BTW, my horns are wrapped in deadening material and I still like the 79s much more. The difference between the two speakers is quite noticeable to my ears.

Overall, I love the presence of the LaScala. I prefer the LaScala sound much more than the Cornwall, which I've owned twice, for about 10 years total. I think I'm hooked on the horn loaded bass. To me the LaScala has always sounded more live, more natural. In my current room, it's hard to tell exactly where the sound is coming from, as the room seems to be "filled" with sound. It's that feeling that there's a band right in front of me that has kept me loyal to LaScalas. And with the KW-120 subs, it's a no brainer for me.

I hope this helps out a bit with my room and tastes! Sorry for being long winded!

Jeff

[tidmack]

Thanks Dee, I think I'll do the convertible option. I know Bob Crites comes with a LOT of recommendation, but are there others on the board who do rebuilds? Honestly, I've heard so many good things about Bob's work, but I'm just looking at my options. Does anyone know the differences between the rebuilds each person does?. . .maybe there's no difference?

Jeff

[mark1101]

Jeff,

There is Bob, Dean, and Al. They are the well known network guys on this forum and elsewhere. I have bought products from each of them and I'll try to briefly overview their specialties.

Bob is all about stock Klispch and parts. If you have a cabinet, he will have everything and every service required to fill the insides or fix anything broken inside (he does a first class job). The guy has everything....and rebuilds networks, tweeters, woofers, and probably cars and golf carts. I don't know. But if you need something Bob has it.

Al meticulously designs and builds various high performing aftermarket networks, and offers other parts such as his trachorn squawker. He also offers design services. See his website. I'm sure I missed something.

Dean is smack in the middle and brings strong practical knowledge on networks and specific component performance within the various designs. He is the tweaker and tuning specialist. He will upgrade your stock networks, or build you new ones. He builds for Al under contract on some designs and does meticulous work. Dean has helped tune my networks introducing specific components to target my tastes, and has shown great patience. This is why he asks the questions he does.

All these guys are a pleasure to do business with and all are trustworthy. Whoever you work with, you can't go wrong.

[Daddy Dee]

Thanks Dee, I think I'll do the convertible option. I know Bob Crites comes with a LOT of recommendation, but are there others on the board who do rebuilds? Honestly, I've heard so many good things about Bob's work, but I'm just looking at my options. Does anyone know the differences between the rebuilds each person does?. . .maybe there's no difference?

Jeff

Jeff,

Mark has given you a pretty good run down on these three guys and the styles in which they approach the task. I've had the opportunity for dealing with all of these guys and I appreciate what each of them does.

Bob is the only person I know who does the factory spec thing, which is also, IMO, the most economical option too.

In my Heritage experience, I started with a pair of 77 LaScalas with original type AA crossovers. They sounded pretty harsh to my ears. I had Al K build a pair of his universal Type A replacements for me and they sounded fabulous, of course. Later I got curious enough about what Bob was doing to buy a pair of his Type A and then had a Type AA rebuilt. What I had gotten curious about was what Mr. Paul heard with his ears when he designed and had made certain calls about parts and manufacturing price point, etc. and then he sent these rascals out of the factory. I wanted to experience that sound. And I have to say, the result was delightful. In my mind, the cool thing about Klipsch Heritage is not that they cannot be improved upon, but that they are so darn good at their price point.

I'm just sort of corny about that as part of my admiration for Mr. Paul. I'm not sure why, but this is an issue that sometimes evokes some hot (uncool) responses from folks who find this quite irritating.(disagreement about crossovers, that is) That is part of what is fascinating about audio, there are certain subjects which when discussed will bring out defensiveness if there is any to be had.

Of course, with Amy as administrator/moderator, things have gotten to be more civil lately.

[Deang]

Bob is the only person I know who does the factory spec thing...

Don't know about that, I've built quite a few in the last three years. I do use a low pass inductor with slightly lower DCR than the stock part, so I guess mine aren't really 'factory spec'. OTOH, Bob has always used caps with the lowest ESR, and that's not 'factory spec' either. Both of these things do change the sound of speaker. Now, as far as your comment about running what you do because you wanted to hear what Mr. Paul heard -- since you run your squawker 3dB down I would say that's hardly the case. This is not so much a criticism as an observation, and something that exemplies my argument that since people have different preferences in sound -- dogmatic positions on network topology and the parts chosen to build it with are fruitless. What does it matter what PWK really liked if it doesn't sound as good to you as something else? I'm pretty sure PK would have whacked your fingers for moving the wire on that autoformer, and he would have whacked mine for using a resistor in some of my networks -- but there is more than one way to skin a cat -- and the best network is the one that lines up best with your preferences.

[Deang]

Bob's Type A

[Deang]

Al's Universal Type A Replacement (ALK).

[Deang]

All fun to listen with -- but I still say the bigger the room and/or the louder you listen the more network you need.

[colterphoto1]

uh, why do those look so different?

[Deang]

Because they're all different networks. The first is my Type AA, the second is Bob's Type A. The big difference here is the two extra parts (cap and coil) in the AA tweeter section -- but the parts (brand), layout, and build style aren't the same so they look more different than they really are. The ALK of course is a different animal altogether -- so naturally looks it as well.

Still trying to figure out what your Yammerhammer is hearing. There are no polarity reversals on any section of the networks with the A, AA, and AB/AL/AK Types. IOWs, they all wire up the same way on the filter as well as externally -- beats me. As far as which network with your LaScalas -- it's true that running the AA with your K-55-M's will accentuate the midrange a little, but it's just a little, and it's only through a limited part of its response. I've run the earlier filters with the K-55-M's plenty and never thought the midrange was bowling me over.

[BEC]

Deans AA should be called the "AA lite" or "aa". A simpler but more expensive version of the Klipsch AA with no zeners.

Bob

[Deang]

I hardly think removal of the zeners reduces the network to 'lite' status. Most remove them and purists don't want them. I still use them and the decision on whether to use them or not is done on a case by case basis. People using the older K-77 who really lean on the volume or those using older power amps with strong turn on/off transients might need them -- but the AA sure isn't less of a network if you don't use them. I also don't think it makes much sense to advocate their use in the AA but not in the Type A -- a network that dumps substanially more energy in the tweeter than the AA.

[Daddy Dee]

Bob is the only person I know who does the factory spec thing...

Don't know about that, I've built quite a few in the last three years. I do use a low pass inductor with slightly lower DCR than the stock part, so I guess mine aren't really 'factory spec'. OTOH, Bob has always used caps with the lowest ESR, and that's not 'factory spec' either. Both of these things do change the sound of speaker. Now, as far as your comment about running what you do because you wanted to hear what Mr. Paul heard -- since you run your squawker 3dB down I would say that's hardly the case. This is not so much a criticism as an observation, and something that exemplies my argument that since people have different preferences in sound -- dogmatic positions on network topology and the parts chosen to build it with are fruitless. What does it matter what PWK really liked if it doesn't sound as good to you as something else? I'm pretty sure PK would have whacked your fingers for moving the wire on that autoformer, and he would have whacked mine for using a resistor in some of my networks -- but there is more than one way to skin a cat -- and the best network is the one that lines up best with your preferences.

Dean,

I think I agree with most of what you said. I'm glad to know that it is "observation" more than "criticism" because in my reading of your post, I thought it sounded like criticism. It is fine if we disagree. So I'll respond to some of your statements and your question because I value our friendship. If we can be clear with each other, I do value that.

Bob has always used caps with the lowest ESR, and that's not 'factory spec' either.

I'm sorry that my lack of technical understanding prevents me from grasping or properly responding to the technical issues you argue. I can tell that I have not communicated well the meaning I was trying to convey. So I should say more about that which will hopefully be more clear. What I am saying comes from my very lay observations, in which it seems to me that you and Bob have different philosophies on crossovers. My understanding is that you and Bob have a different "intent" in your work on crossovers. My understanding of what that intent is: is that you want to "improve" on factory spec. My understanding of Bob's intent is to "restore" crossovers to factory spec. My perceptions may be incorrect, but that is what they are. Whether Bob accomplishes his intent or not, I am not qualified to judge. I don't begin to understand the technology of the simplest networks. I have to give this disclaimer. I do think that (one of the things you offer) is a refinement of the factory spec. I think of this in the same context as Klipsch engineers who have been working for years to develop better crossovers. I think of the AK4 as one such example of Klipsch engineering's work on this matter. Whether it is better parts on a old design or a different design altogether, this is what I think you are offering and it is all a refinement or a design beyond factory spec.

Now, as far as your comment about running what you do because you

wanted to hear what Mr. Paul heard -- since you run your squawker 3dB

down I would say that's hardly the case.

This is a point on which we simply disagree. I don't think you are aware that I'm not listening to Khorns at all. I am listening to bone stock Heresy II's. So does this validate my my statement about my interest in hearing what Mr. Paul heard? I wouldn't think so, my comment is about a non technical understanding of my own experience. I think it's matter a disagreement on the point, which does not trouble me.

since people have different preferences in sound -- dogmatic positions

on network topology and the parts chosen to build it with

are fruitless.

I think I agree with your statement completely and emphatically. Dean, did my post sound communicate that I have dogmatic positions on network topology? About the only thing I would be "dogmatic" about would be the idea that if a person wants to compare high end crossovers to factory spec, that in order for that comparison to be meaningful, one must have experienced the sound of factory spec, or some approximation of it. Comparing 30 year old worn out stock crossovers (and thinking they represent factory spec) For people to find what they like and sounds pleasing to their ears is a good thing. I think of it like people driving the car they like. Works for me. Taking my point to the automotive world, it is not meaningful to compare the performance of a new car of any kind to a worn out car. If I have not communicated this in my post, then what we have here is a failure to communicate. (no offense intended to Paul Newman). To meaningfully compare A to B, one should know the value of A. That's my opinion.

What does it matter what PWK really liked if it doesn't sound as good to you as something else?

Actually, it does not matter at all. I think you ask a good question. My answer to the question is that this is simply that it matters to me. Just because it matters to me does not mean that I think it "should" matter to anyone else. It is a matter of my own personal sentimental appreciation for PWK. I like to listen to music and sometimes remember that the speakers (and crossovers, drivers etc.) are Mr. Paul's design. (and I know that there are many factors which would mean that I'm not hearing precisely the same sound as Mr. Paul heard) I truly do not expect you or anyone else to think the same way. I offer the statement only as an expression of my own subjective preference. Occasionally I run across someone else who thinks the same way. It's o.k. if you think I'm irrational about it. I am genuinely happy for you to enjoy the gear you've got more than you'd enjoy moving Mr. Paul's system into your house. And further, I'm genuinely happy for your customers to enjoy the crossovers you build for them. It really is about enjoying the music.

but there is more than one way to skin a cat -- and the best network is the one that lines up best with your preferences.

Again, I agree completely and emphatically. If my post has suggested that I think there is only one way to skin a cat or that the best network for everyone has anything to do with my preferences, then I have communicated the opposite of what I intended to say.

[BEC]

Dean,

The comment by me was not criticism, just a statement of fact. A Klipsch type AA crossover has zeners. They are a very expensive part of the tweeter protection circuit.

Bob

[Guest " "]

Jeff,

There is Bob, Dean, and Al. They are the well known network guys on this forum and elsewhere. I have bought products from each of them and I'll try to briefly overview their specialties.

Bob is all about stock Klispch and parts. If you have a cabinet, he will have everything and every service required to fill the insides or fix anything broken inside (he does a first class job). The guy has everything....and rebuilds networks, tweeters, woofers, and probably cars and golf carts. I don't know. But if you need something Bob has it.

Al meticulously designs and builds various high performing aftermarket networks, and offers other parts such as his trachorn squawker. He also offers design services. See his website. I'm sure I missed something.

Dean is smack in the middle and brings strong practical knowledge on networks and specific component performance within the various designs. He is the tweaker and tuning specialist. He will upgrade your stock networks, or build you new ones. He builds for Al under contract on some designs and does meticulous work. Dean has helped tune my networks introducing specific components to target my tastes, and has shown great patience. This is why he asks the questions he does.

All these guys are a pleasure to do business with and all are trustworthy. Whoever you work with, you can't go wrong.

And then of course there is you.

If you know the difference between an inductor and capacitor and can use a soldering gun, many folks on the forum have ordered the parts and did the re-fresh themselve's.

Others have built some of the gentle slope as well as the extreme slope networks.