Dr. John T. Post's Thesis on Tractrix Horns

[Deang]

"However, they did add tractrix to both the Cornwall and Heresy..."

Well, the tweeter is. I think both are using the K-79 with titanium diaphragms. I'm pretty sure both use the old K-700 from the original Heresy (since they lost the mold for the K-600). Both mid drivers are titanium K-53's.

"It's called the Jubilee."

The Jubliee is not a Klipschorn. At any rate, that doesn't answer the question as to why the Klipschorn and LaScala don't use tractrix horns.

[mikebse2a3]

Yes, agreed (tractrix wins) so why doesn't Klipsch use tractrix in the Klipschorn?

It's called the Jubilee

I could easily see the Tractrix Horn being used in the KHorn and even it becoming a Two Way design but the fact is it still will be limited by the LF Section.

Seems to me that PWK wanted to use the time he had to make what would be an improvement to the Klipschorn by returning to his orginal design goal of a Two Way Speaker Design for the Klipschorn which also meant real improvements to the Bass Horn would be required. The resulting Klipschorn Jubilee (LF Section in Particular) design was the "culmination of the orginal concept for the Klipschorn" and was only made possible by the very real improvements needed and acheived for the LF Horn of The Klipschorn Jubilee.

The "Future" is the Klipschorn Jubilee and all it offers because it isn't just another small step but offers a major leap forward in what is possible with an all Horn Loaded Speaker System. The way I see it the Klipschorn Jubilee LF section is the "FOUNDATION" and HF Horns/Drivers can/will come and go over time.

mike tn[]

[bodcaw boy]

I think part of the answer is that for bass horns, the difference in performance between exponential and tractrix horns seems rather small. Bruce Edgar gave up on tractrix for bass horns. The tractrix has been widely acepted for midranges, as we see from Klipsch's current line. My question is, why not revise the K401 to be tractrix? I think Klipsch wants to keep the top hat of the K-horn the same and its volumetric constraints are preventing any change to horn form.

For those of us, like me, who are math-challenged, the value of this article is the bibliography, which is a comprehensive survey of horn literature from Rayleigh's time through 1994.

dr edgar visits me about once a year and he has become quite the historian of the tractix horn and paul voight but i would have to disagree with doc edgar on the tractrix horns for lf horns. equations are not "bandwidth" limited and i have designed quite a few that work just fine and as expected.

we will not (at least me) revised any heritage product whose components are still available. i respect and admire paul too much.

boy

[bodcaw boy]

Yes, agreed (tractrix wins) so why doesn't Klipsch use tractrix in the Klipschorn?

It's called the Jubilee

I could easily see the Tractrix Horn being used in the KHorn and even it becoming a Two Way design but the fact is it still will be limited by the LF Section.

Seems to me that PWK wanted to use the time he had to make what would be an improvement to the Klipschorn by returning to his orginal design goal of a Two Way Speaker Design for the Klipschorn which also meant real improvements to the Bass Horn would be required. The resulting Klipschorn Jubilee (LF Section in Particular) design was the "culmination of the orginal concept for the Klipschorn" and was only made possible by the very real improvements needed and acheived for the LF Horn of The Klipschorn Jubilee.

The "Future" is the Klipschorn Jubilee and all it offers because it isn't just another small step but offers a major leap forward in what is possible with an all Horn Loaded Speaker System. The way I see it the Klipschorn Jubilee LF section is the "FOUNDATION" and HF Horns/Drivers can/will come and go over time.

mike tn[]

exactly right!!

[freddyi]

thanks - those far-field curves are very pretty for the tractrix.

[IndyKlipschFan]

I wonder with all of us crazy Klipsch forum members hooked on HT (OK, a very small universe in reality USA wise, but big on here... If we should of concentrated on a products like the KPT 325 for our own "commercial" HT's as well.) I have been to the Hall of Champions at the NCAA exhibit here in Indy, all Klipsch, and it does sound great.

The THX system, IMO, was a bold move in this direction. I wonder if Klipsch will expand on it or leave it as is.. Are we through with the HT as a market to expand because of lower price options out there? Or is it really the market reality here that flat screens in normal family rooms provide a better opportunity for Klipsch too. (Of course this looks like it is true. But you build on the reputation of the THX system for the house too. IMO )

The Incident you had with Dr Bruce Edgar, I also had in Lima Ohio at the Midwest Audio Fest, in 2003. (?) It was my first experience with his large Edgar Horns (Well all of his models really) The big system was pretty cool actually. I didn't like any of his smaller ones. As far as a WAF, you would need a huge room to appreciate it. What I loved the most, was in his show and tell, it really helped me showing how a 4' full range speaker put into a small hole when "horn design" bass speaker really sounded incredible when horn loaded to create BIG Beautiful Bass.

When Dr Edgar found out I had K horns, he went on and on what HE would of changed. Funny thing was, I mean I mentioned KLIPSCH to the guy.. and yes, he was very nice and I think likes a audience, (don't we all.) We had several people around me so he went on and on...... and on. I politely interupted him a few times to try and understand what he was saying as others around me seemed to know it all... nodding in yes, yes, yes, then what... 20 min later.. he said.. "Well that is my opinion hope that helps you re do your K horns." I know I wanted to say, "Well thank you... I kinda like them just as Paul W Klipsch and Roy and Jim and everyone else I know at Klipsch that may have had a hand in designing/ upgrading them to be just fine." But, I was polite and said thanks.. (Note to the techno engineering type people, please remember we as fans do not always understand all that you say.) One person said give us a readers digest version! Dr Edgar said, "The K horn needs a tractrix horn..." LOL So yes, indeed.. do that, state it, then give a short explanation why if possible still in understandable language. It helps a LOT!

[bodcaw boy]

"However, they did add tractrix to both the Cornwall and Heresy..."

Well, the tweeter is. I think both are using the K-79 with titanium diaphragms. I'm pretty sure both use the old K-700 from the original Heresy (since they lost the mold for the K-600). Both mid drivers are titanium K-53's.

"It's called the Jubilee."

The Jubliee is not a Klipschorn. At any rate, that doesn't answer the question as to why the Klipschorn and LaScala don't use tractrix horns.

i don't know if i ever told you guys the full official name of the jub.......in a grand gesture, as paul was known to do, he said "we'll call it the Klipschorn Jubilee. to follow in the Jewish tradition of a Jubilee; celebrating 50 years! Let's go eat some enchiladas!" to which i replied, "oh si, como no!"

this was 1996........

boy!!

[Deang]

You know Roy, it sure is nice having you around this place.

[vacs2000]

Good Evening,

quite interested as a reading this Thesis especially if we judge it from the physics point of you. Still on all these analysis of this article but also on similar ones, I think we "forgot" to take into account the inefficiency or particuliarity of the human ear. A scientific measurement is always valid but the actual oral results depends a lot on our ears. So when I observe the response curves for both the exponential/tractrix horns and see how close these curves are (maybe 10-20% difference) I am not at all sure, if I would fold an hypothetical responce of a human ear, that I could here a noticeable difference. Also all these curves have no error bars so it might be that "within errors" they are quasi the same. So before tearing apart your exp horns ( me included) I would investigate a little bit more. Just to emphasise again, my comments are not implying at all that this fine thesis is inaccurate the least. It is the human factor that is hard to quantize.

regards

george

[seti]

"However, they did add tractrix to both the Cornwall and Heresy..."

Well, the tweeter is. I think both are using the K-79 with titanium diaphragms. I'm pretty sure both use the old K-700 from the original Heresy (since they lost the mold for the K-600). Both mid drivers are titanium K-53's.

 

"It's called the Jubilee."

The Jubliee is not a Klipschorn. At any rate, that doesn't answer the question as to why the Klipschorn and LaScala don't use tractrix horns.

i don't know if i ever told you guys the full official name of the jub.......in a grand gesture, as paul was known to do, he said "we'll call it the Klipschorn Jubilee.  to follow in the Jewish tradition of a Jubilee; celebrating 50 years!  Let's go eat some enchiladas!"  to which i replied, "oh si, como no!"

this was 1996........

boy!!

Ever since I first heard the name Jubilee I wonder if it had anything to do with the Jewish tradition. Cool story Roy!

http://www.christusrex.org/www1/ofm/jub/JUBmean1.html

The name "Jubilee" derives its etymological meaning from the curved horn of the ram (Jobhel) which is sounded to announce the beginning of the holy year, that is the 10th day of the month of Tishri, on the day of 'Kippur'.

[bodcaw boy]

Good Evening,

quite interested as a reading this Thesis especially if we judge it from the physics point of you. Still on all these analysis of this article but also on similar ones, I think we "forgot" to take into account the inefficiency or particuliarity of the human ear. A scientific measurement is always valid but the actual oral results depends a lot on our ears. So when I observe the response curves for both the exponential/tractrix horns and see how close these curves are (maybe 10-20% difference) I am not at all sure, if I would fold an hypothetical responce of a human ear, that I could here a noticeable difference. Also all these curves have no error bars so it might be that "within errors" they are quasi the same. So before tearing apart your exp horns ( me included) I would investigate a little bit more. Just to emphasise again, my comments are not implying at all that this fine thesis is inaccurate the least. It is the human factor that is hard to quantize.

regards

george

can't control the ears.....but just like we can't control the room the speakers go in, we work with only those things we can control....the speaker [:-*]

you would be surprised at how much of effect a little change to a curve makes but no matter........put the sledge hammer down......and you jacksonbart put the dynamite up........and just keep your current horns...........[]

but as for me and my bunch, we will use tractrix horns (until another better curve comes around)[A]

boy!!