Pure madness Anybody in for a little challenge?

[Jay481985]

15 incher

[CECAA850]

IMO 3 TC-LMS5400's would have to smack the Jackhammer around. Wasnt Jay planning to get the 18 inchers? The pure excursion those drivers are capable of is just mind blowing (to me anyway)

probably.... and yes I am expecting two 18 inchers with 4-6 18 in pr to get the best response and most efficency. They are rated 38 mm one way but in reality its alot more as tcsounds limits xmax to 10% thd. its real xmax is like 50 mm or so or 4-5 inches xmax

What do you plan on pushing them with?

[Jay481985]

at the moment one crown xti 4000 with the velodyne sms-1 this is all about sq

in the future the possibility of another xti 4000 so the woofers can get near full power (3200 rms) in actuality it can take alot more power (probably 10000 watts for 10 minutes or so)

[darkside]

That pic, its a thing o' beauty eh?

[DrWho]

if only looks helped the sound...

not to discredit any of the "perty" drivers out there, but it really annoys me when they're made up all perty-like. Seems to me like money wasted on trying to get the things sold - and it doesn't even affect the aesthetic quality of the final design when the basket is housed inside an enclosure anyway... [^o)]

sorry for venting - y'all can resume your pissing match

[Jay481985]

hahaha but you are right and wrong mike.

The problem is yes money spent on aesthetics is wasteful but it does sell. Just like the nice boxes that companies make to make the box attractive on the store shelves. It works, period. I am sure you can say that about alot of speaker related things. Heck half of all speakers I would argue are brought on looks and size alone, not sound. And that goes for the high end products too. Even klipsch with the copper cones does not need to be copper. We don't need wood veneer and just ship them bare mdf but then again?

Also did you ever look at what some other subwoofers companies do ?

Also remember some of these subwoofers might go into cars that have plexiglass sidewalls to see the motor.

[DrWho]

That doesn't get around the fact that you feel aesthetics plays a roll in the drivers you like (why else post a picture?). Heck, you haven't heard any of the things to which you refer - or have you?

By all means continue to brag about the marketing crap you're being fed as well as the completely inaccurate modelling in WinISD. Just remember that the majority of the misinformation in the audio world is the result of conclusions drawn in the same manner. This hobby would be a lot more fun if people limited their opinions to things they have actually heard instead of running around as self-proclaimed experts [6]

I know that sounds harsh and I'm not really directing it towards any specific person - I just couldn't think of a better way to say it without losing meaning.

*sigh*

[CAS]

Any consideration for what's being done to the ear structure. Once they gone, they gone for good. Then you can boom boom t'il your hair parts and it'll be of little enjoyment. Just one episode of too loud a noise can result in permanent damage. Just a thought.

My brother once had 14 washers and 6 driers all of the same type. He parted them out and kept an operational set for decades. He's certifiably looney too.

I love that post. I don't know why.

By the way, I know what you mean. After a certain point a pissing match is meaningless. For example, I own a handgun (Para-ord P12-45, my baby) and enjoy targets, small game hunting and ***** shooting. But I have no interest in becoming the next commando or signing up to be an A1 gunner.

[TheEAR]

"Heck, you haven't heard any of the things to which you refer - or have you?"

LOL spot on,Jay likes to beat people with imaginary subs and products in pics.

What I can say with confidence is the JL Audio Fathom subs are real,sound downright amazing and perform to the highest standard. And I have two f113's and one f112 now! [] And above all were tested against real competition. Also the claimed sound quality is real,it bests the Velo DD18! A subwoofer that uses servo control and the most advanced built in correction system of any powered sub! Plus in SPL the JL fends off SVS,HSU with ease!

Craigsub rated the f113 above all commers,remains to be seen how it compared to the SUbmersive and BMF,BMF being a design using PR's...SQ will not be the same as the Submersive and JL Fathom (both sealed). And the RT-12d...please ...I wanted to be polite but it is a great HT sub...for music it gets outclassed by the FATHOM in sound quality.

You have to hear what a great sealed sub is all about,may not win the dB drag race with a vented...SQ is unmatched(save for a IB).

Oh no my JL baskets are not painted in Ferrari red! DAMN O DAMN [6]

[darkside]

Dr. - I've come to realization that you only go by what your ears
tell you and don't believe in other crap. And this leads me to say that
you care too much. If Jay or I think the 5400 looks nice, so be it, let
us as it shouldn't affect you in anyway. Besides, it is exremely easy
to ignore a post isn't it? You too ear, who cares that much about what other people think? Honestly...

[mas]

What the heck...I am not really interested in getting into this, but I must amplify what Doc said!

And..."10000 watts for 10 minutes or so"... That's one heck of a space heater!!

...and to think those silly sound reinforcement folks haven't discovered car audio drivers...[*-)]

Oh, and for all those running on about hearing damage due to LF energy...nope! Excessive LF exposure does not cause tinnitus or hearing damage as does excessive MF/HF energy. Strangely enough, excessive LF energy contributes to respiratory problems.

Have fun...

[DrWho]

...and to think those silly sound reinforcement folks haven't discovered car audio drivers...[*-)]

Oh, and for all those running on about hearing damage due to LF energy...nope! Excessive LF exposure does not cause tinnitus or hearing damage as does excessive MF/HF energy. Strangely enough, excessive LF energy contributes to respiratory problems.

Seriously, what would pro sound guys know about SPL anyway...??? [] Stupid Osha [*-)][]

Btw, would you happen to have any articles that talk about the 'damage' of LF energy? I'm doing a presentation for Engineering Open House this spring where we'll be doing demonstrations on low frequency and small room acoustics. Apparently we have to keep things under 90dB, but I'm hoping that's "A-Weighted" so we can blast the subs up to about 140dB at 30Hz just to show the huge impact of modes [] But it would be nice to have some information to present so they can make an informed decision. I might need to make the analogy that wind is pretty much a 1Hz signal playing at very very large amplitudes (would 150dB on a very windy day be too high of a prediction?)

[DrWho]

Dr. - I've come to realization that you only go by what your ears
tell you and don't believe in other crap. And this leads me to say that
you care too much. If Jay or I think the 5400 looks nice, so be it, let
us as it shouldn't affect you in anyway. Besides, it is exremely easy
to ignore a post isn't it? You too ear, who cares that much about what other people think? Honestly...

There is absolutely nothing wrong with enjoying the way something looks...or heck, enjoying anything for any reason. However, when making comments about sound quality all the other attributes don't matter at all.

And for the record, I go by my ears and good measurements (and to date the both coincide very well). I most certainly don't go by looks (as is evident by all my unfinished subs in my living room) and I don't go by predictions either (though I might use predictions for skepticism).

[Jay481985]

What the heck...I am not really interested in getting into this, but I must amplify what Doc said!

And..."10000 watts for 10 minutes or so"... That's one heck of a space heater!!

...and to think those silly sound reinforcement folks haven't discovered car audio drivers...[*-)]

Oh, and for all those running on about hearing damage due to LF energy...nope! Excessive LF exposure does not cause tinnitus or hearing damage as does excessive MF/HF energy. Strangely enough, excessive LF energy contributes to respiratory problems.

Have fun...

Just because it can accept 10000 watts does not mean I will be doing that. What is that anyway I need a 30 amp 380 watt plug for that??

[Jay481985]

"Heck, you haven't heard any of the things to which you refer - or have you?"

LOL spot on,Jay likes to beat people with imaginary subs and products in pics.

What I can say with confidence is the JL Audio Fathom subs are real,sound downright amazing and perform to the highest standard. And I have two f113's and one f112 now! [] And above all were tested against real competition. Also the claimed sound quality is real,it bests the Velo DD18! A subwoofer that uses servo control and the most advanced built in correction system of any powered sub! Plus in SPL the JL fends off SVS,HSU with ease!

Craigsub rated the f113 above all commers,remains to be seen how it compared to the SUbmersive and BMF,BMF being a design using PR's...SQ will not be the same as the Submersive and JL Fathom (both sealed). And the RT-12d...please ...I wanted to be polite but it is a great HT sub...for music it gets outclassed by the FATHOM in sound quality.

You have to hear what a great sealed sub is all about,may not win the dB drag race with a vented...SQ is unmatched(save for a IB).

Oh no my JL baskets are not painted in Ferrari red! DAMN O DAMN [6]

I can imagine which is alot more then you do. Atleast I am honest with the subs that I have. Now I was being polite the whole time but how many subs can you sucessfully prove you own... oh yeah none cause many people called you out and yet you never showed substancial proof to make them into believers. Now I will call you out to take a real picture of the whole room with yourself included. I want to see the 20+ subwoofers in your house.

[Jay481985]

BTW just to be a mean person ( I just got done finishing my 27 page paper for class)

I will post another pic

http://www.tcsounds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=505

[CAS]

That's an unbelievable pic. I'm speachless. No words.....

If the TV-12 is an F-150 then that's freakin bigfoot.

[mas]

What the heck...I am not really interested in getting into this, but I must amplify what Doc said!

And..."10000 watts for 10 minutes or so"... That's one heck of a space heater!!

...and to think those silly sound reinforcement folks haven't discovered car audio drivers...[*-)]

Oh, and for all those running on about hearing damage due to LF energy...nope! Excessive LF exposure does not cause tinnitus or hearing damage as does excessive MF/HF energy. Strangely enough, excessive LF energy contributes to respiratory problems.

Have fun...

Just because it can accept 10000 watts does not mean I will be doing that. What is that anyway I need a 30 amp 380 watt plug for that??

I really have no interest in pursuing this with much vigor, but what the heck, many a truth is said in jest and this will act as a needed diversion from my other concerns!

Just a couple of comments. Regarding aesthetics. Yes, I guess they can play a role. I know that heat exchangers in furnaces are often brightly colored to impress technicians who must service them, as this adds greatly to their performance. And, now that I think of it, the blades in a garbage disposal must be pretty brightly colored as well, as I am certain that such a critical part would be sure to be a showcase. But then I am waiting for a model with a plexiglass cover so that my friends can see this particular showcase in my house as my friends and I crowd about under the kitchen sink!

Again, to amplify Doc's point, yes, the aesthetics point to a particular market demographic. But unfortunately, they do not point to engineers. To run on far too long, it is interesting to note that if you visit a local neighborhood hangout where folks show off their boy-racer vehicles that they pay for, you will see allot of very impressive looking chromed and brightly colored accessories, doo-dads and decals, all designed to make the cars look REALLY fast! It is also interesting that when you look inside a professional vehicle designed where performance is critical as they are MAKING money with the car (and no, measuring 150 dB in a car with a TEF analyzer - no less!!! adding substantial insult to injury! - is not real performance - unless you consider that it exposes every rattle in the vehicle), you will not see the same chromed nonsense. ..Especially as heat transfer characterisitcs are effected by the COLOR of the part {FWIW: darker colors - all materials being equal - conductively heat faster and dissipate heat faster than light colors. Yep, and I am talking about ONLY the COLOR! Take the same aluminum part, paint one white and the other black! Its a neat physics experiment that was always fun to throw in just to illustrate the point and to make folks stop and wonder how just the color effects conductive heat transfer. If you want the details, just ask and you can amaze yourself!} So, those silly engineers would prefer to have headers, valve covers, differential and transmission housings, etc painted black, as opposed to the fanboys who like to see components that are subject to heat degradation looking sharp in chrome or other neon colors! Yep, marketing does matter! Symbolism /appearance do too often triumph over substance. I guess those silly engineers just neglected to take the marketing class!

And plexiglass panels in a sub!? Now there is a sound (no pun intended!) design! But I guess they make using a tuned port almost redundant! Do any of the modelling software packages allow you to model the enclosure as a strangely compliant passive radiator? Again, marketing triumphs over engineering! But you pay your money and take your choice!

And regarding my quoting of your previous statement "10,000 watts for 10 minutes or so...", I think you missed my point.

Conversion of electrical energy into heat is not an acoustical measurement that is too often used - except as a limit to be avoided. The efficiency of a speaker to act as a heater just isn't as useful a measure as some other measurements of which I can think! And it has nothing to do with SPL or the audible characteristics. But if I am looking for a unit that I or my cat can cuddle close to in the winter for warmth, it just might fit the bill! It might even double as a great coffee warmer, if I can keep the cup from walking off the surface!

Now, I am not even trying to evaluate the driver as I quite frankly have neither the meaningful specs nor an over-riding desire at the moment (it may be wonderful, who knows!), but I think the comments thus far have been aimed at pointing out that there is a difference between real meaningful specs that contribute to the actual performance of a unit, and attributes that are designed to capture the attention of those more interested in the 'wow factor' totally divorced from actual real world performance. Unfortunately the market has moved in many ways to favor appearance over substance in far too many market segments, and it is hard to deny that far too many folks are swayed by this factor. But it is just as easy to see the detrimental effects this behavior has on the development of real advances as well. Ah, but each pays their money and makes their choice, and it is too often rather comical to watch the faces of friends who ask me for my opinion on some technical whiz bang idea/product as they hope that I will substantiate their hopes and reinforce the emotional opinions, only to hear an analysis that focuses on actual performance and quality. And then they run out and still buy the fancy colored unit instead of the better engineered product. Oh well...people believe what they want to believe.

But have fun...just realize that some of us see the glitz as window dressing and prefer to see the engineering 'beef' under the marketing hype.

{Addendum...In all fairness, I realize that not all folks are, nor want to be 'engineers'! And I attribute allot of the problems we experience in this area to the marketing hype that (often necessarily!) obscures real technical understanding. Additionaly, the lack of real or applicable specs contribute substantially to this! After all, many of us still buy space heaters, stereos and light bulbs on the basis of the same spec - Watts!!! And of those 3 categories, which one do we care about in terms of their heat output??? When was the last time you had sufficient information necessary to evaluate a light bulb in terms of its LIGHT output that is measured in lumens or candlepower? Granted, amplifiers are a much more complex beast where voltage and current capacity as well as duty-cycle, transfer functions, and complex impedance over the full frequency bandpass (ie Nyquist and Heyser spirals that are convolvable to into other domains), are difficult at best to evaluate! And to try to evaluate them without a consideration of the complex impedance offered by the total load renders the process even more complex! But, please, take any rating in the audio word using "watts" as the criteria as, at best, a very incomplete picture - almost to the point of being useless in a practical sense! ...That is, unless you are purchasing it as a space heater!}

Oh, and Doc, you should have a PM regarding some effects of LF energy on health. You will find some info under searches for "Vibroacoustic Disease". For general hearing matters, there is no better source than the House Ear Institute. But if you contact them, just be aware that they are part clinic and also part research vehicle, and you are most likely to reach the clinic side who are, with all due respect, not as oriented toward the research that you most probably care more about. Also be prepared to run into allot of blank looks about LF induced damage. Most of the research has been performed by the military. And you might be rather bemused to know thet the OSHA office for hearing damage was closed in, I believe, 1989 after the industrial exposure standards were established! Another source of information are the folks at Etymotic Research. Again, realize that only a few are actually involved with the research! So you may have to persist a bit in reaching them!

But I have a few papers that will help you. I have the links as well as copies of them in Word format, hoping that this will help you to cut and paste as needed for your paper. I will see if I can find your email address as I fear I cannot attach a Word formatted document. So you might send it to me and I will get the material to you asap!

Oh, and another (not so) neat discovery! Silly me, I downloaded the isSpell or whatever spell checker and after typing the post, invoked it - only to have it sign me out of the forum and delete the post. Now, I am not sure if that meant that my spelling was simply too attrocious, or if that is just another feature (alla MS!), but in any regards I find it a rather amazing limitation for a text editor! So enjoy the typos!

[darkside]

There is absolutely nothing wrong with enjoying

the way something looks...or heck, enjoying anything for any reason.

However, when making comments about sound quality all the other

attributes don't matter at all.

Doc... I agree wholeheartedly but I have this gene (that i got from my mother) that makes agruing instinctual[].

On the subject of health, I've heard that enough bass can collapse lungs..

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/3614180.stm

[mas]

... I have this gene (that i got from my mother) that makes agruing instinctual[].

I quite understand! Like baldness, the arguing gene is a sex-linked gene carried and passed on via the female, but which afflicts the male! I think its cosmic/karmic payback for them having to suffer childbirth! []

{Why do I get the feeling that, by virtue of this comment, I am going to discover that this trait is not only limited to men! Incoming!!!!!

But hey, the baldness part IS correct!!! It 'don't' matter if your dad or the men in his family have hair or not! } [][]