Help as to Where Crossover Points Are in AA and AK-3?

[meagain]

IDK Dean - I'm very frustrated today after being all happy yesterday. Came very close to putting a 'for sale' post up for most everything. With the refurbed tweeters, there's a slight dip where my issues lie and a bump around 12kish? I like that dip and bump. The 'old' tweeters in the ak-3 xover looks really flat through the squawk and tweeter. I suppose the old tweeters in the ak-3's look prettier on paper. When I look at that, it seems the old tweeters might be technically better from a db standpoint...... But I'm glad you brought up the distortion issue again cuz I latch onto it and keep shifting to focus back on what I perceive is merely high volume at 6kish.

What I need to get square is the fact that "I think" distortion wouldn't show up as db leaps on the chart. Maybe a chart could look beautiful but not show distortion on a pink test. ??? And I wonder if said distortion comes out when only playing music. And when playing music watching the rta..... it's almost like the old tweeter changes it's look in that.... um... instead of a spectrum of tweeter, it's taking all the energy to it and narrowing it to the 6k range to leap out. Sometimes my gut starts thinking they just don't have any control over energy. The refurbed tweeters show a pretty yellow hill more across the board during the same parts. LOL I'm losing my fricking mind.

Part of what's frustrating is that although I have the benefit of terminal strips on the ak-3's, I can't get the refurbed z-bracketed tweeters into position in the old speaks. I didn't think it through enough cuz I could've paid Bob some extra to de-rivet those darned things or 'something' so I can swap everything. I'm hopeing to get the other ak-3 moved to listening position tonight and just listen to the darned things. But then I'm going to want to swap tweeters.

At least I think it's all proven my room isn't causing the pierce so I guess that's better than a poke in the eye.

Anyone know how to dismantle the ak-3's woofer and still get power to a crossover?

[meagain]

I think, perhaps, you are just not liking the "bump" at 6-7 khz you get from the AA type crossovers. I think you would perhaps like a type A or AK-3 better. Neither of those have the "bump" in the tweeter output.

Bob

I think you're right Bob. I wrestled the rivets out of the ak-3's tweeter brackets to put in the AA khorn. Clearly, no matter which of these two k-77-m's - the refurbed or 'bad', the AA & Jr's are zooming up the area around 6k by about what seems to be around 5-ish db, which then chills out around 9k to the squawker level. The Jensen AA's seem a bit kinder there. The Jrs worse. The AK-3 seems to not allow this and even tames down my 'hot' tweeters a bit (and they ARE hot). On paper, the squawk seems to ramp up a bit all the way through, till this big leap which is about 10db above the high avg for the squawk. The higher end of the tweet is more inline with it. On my Jrs, the taps are set at 5/2. I've never gone higher, and I suppose they should be higher to better match up to the 6k bump.

I have to point out and REMEMBER that I'm also compareing the soldered k-55-v to the k-55-m in some of these tests, but despite the k-77-m in the ak-3's.... gosh those v's sure do zoom up with the AA. Either way, I know everyone seems to love the AA/Jr's but if this 6k bump is indicative, I have to wonder what they're smoking? Maybe this bump would be lessened with the k-77-m or with hotter squawk taps.... IDK. But I can't fathom why anyone would want or like this bump. It's a bad thing.

Just looking in this 6k area, I could instantly say I like the ak-3 (instant free eq), but so far I've ignored the non-tweeter end of it, like bass.... I do notice the squawker and tweeter is flat as a pancake on rta which I've no clue is good/bad But dang - vocals sound gorgeous even listening to one alone. I'm afraid of the A because I understood it to fall apart at loud volumes.

Dean - Do you think I might be an 'A' or AK-3 person like Bob says? I'm thinking maybe. Heck - for all I know maybe my soldered k-55-v's are bad!

LOL I can find my answers if I could plop my Jr's in the ak-3 khorns

with the m squawk. Suppose i could switch squawk horns... gah. I just find it unfathomable that people can deal with this or don't have to ramp down this bump 7-8db like I do.

[Deang]

Dean - Do you think I might be an 'A' or AK-3 person like Bob says?

Probably. I know I am. Al's filters are very popular though -- people just love to fiddle with the squawker output. I have to admit, I was surprised by what Bob said about the AA tweeter response, I never would have thought that -- but the voltages and RTA don't lie.

[mikebse2a3]

Lisa

In my room/setup I really liked the AK-3 also.[Y]

mike tn[]

[Deang]

Here, let's muddy the waters.

http://forums.klipsch.com/forums/thread/287555.aspx

It's also commonly accepted that the Type A tweeter filter is 'hotter' than the AA. So, though the bump in response that Bob is talking about in the AA isn't present in Type A -- there is more tweeter energy overall.

[BEC]

Well, that 6 khz bump is really there on every AA crossover. I have posted this before, but look at the red line. That is the tweeter voltage output of the AA. On the same trace, there is the yellow line which is tweeter voltage of the type A.

Bob

[BEC]

Now lets look at the AK-3. No tweeter bump.

Bob

[meagain]

Bob - Do you think my soldered 55-V's could have lost some oomph in the drivers? Like have a decrease in output? IDK - I might have a combo of things that adds up 2db here, 3db there to this 6k range. I'm going to toss the ak-3's khorn top hat on the aa/jr's to see what happens.

Dean - IDK.... the ak-3's with refurbed tweets have a bump around 9k and hold up there better. This stands above the avg. squawker level and we both love it. "This" bump and rise is not offensive at all and I can hear all kinds of new things like detail in cymbals, etc. It's that 6k bump that sucks. Dean - didn't you have an ak-3 or 4 in your khorns? I'd be curious to get your critique given your experience and why you went with something else.

[Guest " "]

If it's the "glitch" then what about trying a P-trap?

[meagain]

Bob - Yes, there seems a 5? db difference between the A & AA. I would think that would be significant. Even moreso depending on what squawker one has, etc. Right? Maybe even the round vs. square tweets could add to that pot? Looking at that bump area, it looks like the A might be a good thing for me.

But I see the A starts sooner, goes higher before this area and so it would overlap more? I wonder if that's good/bad or how that sounds? Well, which would have less distortion - the A or AK-3? The only thing I know about steeper slopes is they have steeper slopes and Al makes one that super expensive!

[BEC]

Well, I like the Type A.  I think the Type A is also sometimes Dean's favorite.  I might take issue with Dean that the Type A and other simple networks "fall apart" at high volume.  Not sure I even understand why he feels that way.  I know with the simple networks (or complex) my workshop starts to "fall apart" and cabinet doors start banging at a hundred watts or so, but I don't think it is the sound from the speaker that is falling apart.

Bob Crites

[meagain]

Then, take Bob's graphs above and add this one from Dean... I can see where the type of squawk could also add to the pie.... right? In the 6k ish range - there's a vast difference.

[BEC]

But, I think you have the solder terminal K-55V. If that is right, this is your midrange response.

Bob

[meagain]

Yea, Soldered V's... dang. I thought I was onto something. The soldered seems to be pretty flattish in the middle there.... So I ask this... ideally, wouldn't one want to have a crossover that allows the horn to be what it wants to be? Like, the AA/Jr. seems all hills/valleys on my deq compared to the above chart. But the AK-3 is very flat and appears more like the above. Isn't the latter what one might strive for or be more ideal? IDK.

[BEC]

Of course the crossover's job is to let each driver do what it does best.  Hopefully tie them together as seamlessly as possible.  And there is no right or wrong crossover if we go by opinions of those who have tried a lot of them.  Each of the ones we have mentioned are favorites of some.

If you have the standard AA that came with the older Khorns (if it was an AA) that one could be rebuild to make it convertible from AA to A with just the change of a jumper.  That would let you listen to those two types easily.

Bob

[mikebse2a3]

Lisa you might want to look at some of the test I ran on the different K55 drivers to see a different test method/view.

http://forums.klipsch.com/forums/1/733270/ShowThread.aspx

mike tn

[meagain]

Thanks Mike - I read it again.....

We just moved the other ak-3 to main position. They don't sound good. Off the top, there's a lack of bass. Something shallower about it all. Vocals sound better than what I'm used certainly to tho' they seem 'really' forward over the music. Can hear things more distinctly up high but I don't think that's due to lack of bass. I hear more cymbals and I can separate out horns. LOVE how they handle the 6k area. But, IDK... maybe with good caps? Maybe something wrong with the bass?

I want the depth/prettiness in bass/low mid that the Jensen AA's give but more clarity at least - up higher. I want the tightness, detail and 3-d in the mids the Jr's give (but without the 6k pierce). I want the pretty, clear, distinct (hear the spit) vocals, clarity seemingly most everywhere and the 9-ish k+ tweeter area being more pronouced to get high end goodness of the AK-3 (but with bass & more 3-d). I would like to combine all this. Hence, I think I'm screwed.

Deano - If there's any hope, pencil me in for a convo?

[Guest " "]

"I want the depth/prettiness in bass/low mid that the Jensen AA's give but more clarity at least - up higher. I want the tightness, detail and 3-d in the mids the Jr's give (but without the 6k pierce). I want the pretty, clear, distinct (hear the spit) vocals, clarity seemingly most everywhere and the 9-ish k+ tweeter area being more pronouced to get high end goodness of the AK-3 (but with bass & more 3-d). I would like to combine all this. Hence, I think I'm screwed. "

Sounds like you need the flexibility of an active crossover setup...you have any extra amps laying around.

[meagain]

Speakerfritz - what I'd like is a mixing board on the coctail table. IDK what an active crossover is. Isn't that an EQ really?

We ended up listening to jazz, vocals, more vocals, and minimalistic music with the ak-3s. They are good at that. Anything that has bass - forget it. And, if there's alot of things going on - can't listen with volume cuz it gets convoluted. Mostly I'm worried about the bass cuz I think this shouldn't be. Or the midrange is blazing over it.

[Guest " "]

"Speakerfritz - what I'd like is a mixing board on the coctail table. IDK what an active crossover is. Isn't that an EQ really?"

Yeah...an equalizer can be used to compensate for numerous factors. The active crossover differs from the more exotic EQ by providing line levels that can go to amps, that feed your drivers independently.

As far as the bass issue....what about an active sub-woofer. Mine has settings for frequency, level, phase, octave spread. It has it's own 400 watt amp and auto turns on and off. List was 600, but JandR music world sells for 280.

I'm using it with my LaScala's, powered by my Mcintosh MC-2000 and Mcintosh C-2200 as a pre. Source is either my media server, my computer, SAT reciever, DVD, or DAT drive, occassional record on the old TT.