Help as to Where Crossover Points Are in AA and AK-3?

[DrWho]

Who in their right mind would engineer a flagship product with intent for it to be modified? I can think of dozens of advantages for having soldered connections. I don't think it fair to blaim Klipsch for designing their product well...??? How are you going about the desoldering process?

Ya I know - ppl are gonna go all crazy style about differences of opinion with crossover theory (claiming the flagship wasn't designed well...). I personally prefer to rely on those able to verify why their approaches work - ie, measuring the final acoustic response. Anything else runs the risk of being a preferred flavor of EQ (not to imply that's the case, nor that flavors are bad). There is really no excuse for not verifying either - decent measurement capability is very inexpensive and will always be able to show differences between designs.

[BEC]

Who,

What she is trying to do is get the bad tweeters out so they can be fixed.  Soldering those in was a wrong move no matter who did it.  That is a terminal that is attached to a plastic housing which melts easily and ruins the housing if you are not an expert at soldering or desoldering.  The other end of the wire is also soldered to the crossover.  All K-77 tweeters are likely to fail at some time.  They need to be easy to remove.

Bob Crites

 

[mike stehr]

It's your avatar, Lisa. Change it and everything will be fine........

[DrWho]

Why not have her cut off the cord and then have an experienced person do the desoldering? A 2 foot section of cable costs pretty much nothing to replace.

[meagain]

Who in their right mind would engineer a flagship product with intent for it to be modified? I can think of dozens of advantages for having soldered connections. I don't think it fair to blaim Klipsch for designing their product well...???\

Yea - Who Who? I DO think it's fair to blame them for this design and where you say "designed well" I see it as nothing short of "design flaw".

And what's with the Monster Cable? They used clamps seemingly designed for the size of lamp cord and have all this thick Monster squeezed/shoved into these little clamps clearly not designed to hold this size. I see stray frays, etc. The areas at the crossovers isn't just a matter of desoldering one simple wire. There are 2-3 wires Plus the main wire Plus the gadget they all attach to. Bonus Points for someone KNOTTING the wires up before soldering. OMG.

Bob - I swear if you were local I'd be over there right now with the whole darned top hat to plop on your counter. We gotta talk. Surely I'm forced into a position of sending more than just the darned tweeters unless I bag the whole thing, cut the wires to the crossover and dump in my old stock AA's from my old pair.

Meagain OUT

[meagain]

I'm either going to send the darned x-overs to Bob to get a terminal strip put on or cut the monster cable at the clamp at the tweeter and pry apart the base of the clamp to accept wire again after the tweeters return to me. IDK. Who - my husband knows how to solder and desolder. Has a vacuum thingy, etc. And all he keeps saying is it's the worst soldering job he's ever seen and says it looks to be done by someone that didn't know what they were doing. Incredibly messy job. And everything's knotted together under the solder. I've no clue if that's how it's supposed to be but jeez.

Anyone know what type of solder they used on this? If it's anything fancy?

[DrWho]

Yikes, now I'm beginning to wonder if I've ever seen the AK-3....

I usually use a copper braid for desoldering instead of the vacuum pump things.

[BEC]

I don't have an AK-3, but this nasty mess is the AK-2.

Bob Crites

[meagain]

My AK-3

[meagain]

Bob - If you didn't throw those away, what did you do to them?

[BEC]

I don't even remember how I got that rusty pair.  I would bet they would still work.

Bob 

[meagain]

Anyway - I gave the Jensen AA's a listen with zero expectations going in. These are my immediate impressions........My ears first went looking to see if there was a change in "the piercy parts". They couldn't help themselves... But that got backburnered instantly when I noticed there was other things going on.

First off - I noticed the bass. We feel it goes deeper (or at least sure sounds that way). There's also something 'richer' about it. Perhaps more 3-d ish. There are pretty things happening here. Is it night/day different than what I had? No. But it's bringing something to the table here that I like alot. Then the question was - is it as tight? That, IDK. I initially thought - "perhaps not", then I went back/forth in my head about it and I need to focus on that later. Let's call the tightness thing a wash for now.

2nd off - I feel these can take some volume. Like they are more comfy or easier with it? I didn't get a frown growing on my face and being forced to turn it down. For instance, crescendo type parts didn't leap out and say "we're coming in big here and we're going to leap out of the speaker and make you wince". Like there is a magical fairy inside the preamp that chilled things out for me.

3rdly (is that a word?) - I still have pierce issues (as I expected). But it's more complicated than that. I have other issues than mere pierce and the Jensen AA's are helping with some 'sub-categories' of pierce, yet I'll flip and think......

Should I start a thread? LOL

[joshnich]

So meagain,

I cant tell by your post. Do you find the Jensens pleasing?

Josh

[meagain]

Ya I know - ppl are gonna go all crazy style about differences of opinion with crossover theory (claiming the flagship wasn't designed well...). I personally prefer to rely on those able to verify why their approaches work - ie, measuring the final acoustic response. Anything else runs the risk of being a preferred flavor of EQ (not to imply that's the case, nor that flavors are bad). There is really no excuse for not verifying either - decent measurement capability is very inexpensive and will always be able to show differences between designs.

Who - But in the end, does it matter? For me, all that matters is what my ears tell me. I don't care what a particular x-over tests at because it's what I hear that counts. I just want the tech part of it to tell me which zone I need to delve into to save me time/money. Get me there a bit and my ears/brain will take care of the rest. I don't care what caps measure at or compare at - all I know is boy oh boy... they sure make a difference and I can totally 'get' all these people out there swapping & analyzing caps in their amps, etc. I get it. Whether personalized crossover designs add color or not, doesn't matter to me. It's like art. I can't diss the newer khorn crossover design because I've yet to hear it. I imagine the ak-3's will give me an idea since they're fairly new (I know there is an ak-4 but IDK about 5?)... But I'd be willing to wager a bet that they aren't going to sound as good as these home-made jobies I have here. I betcha. My gut says so. I hope I'm wrong cuz I'm really tireing of spending money and messing around with speakers. Basically I'm saying if you visited here, I'd rather you put away your test gear, sit & chill, see if your foot starts tapping without you thinking about it, your mind wanders a bit, something makes you smile with it's goodness, or some little tiny piece in a song was just flat out 'beautiful' to you.

Ummm - but yea, I want to see the testing for kicks. LOL

OMG! WHY do I have this brain defect that keeps forgetting to dampen the horns? I'm going to change my signature so I remember. Yes, it's come to that.

Dean - oh boy, we gots ta talk. We're hearing things we 'never' heard before (or noticed). WTH?

[meagain]

So meagain,

I cant tell by your post. Do you find the Jensens pleasing?

Josh

Well, I have a boatload of stuff in my head to the point where I had to start jotting it down. And it's far too soon to let loose on it all, but Yes, I find them pleasing. But confusing in that I was very happy with 90% of what I had and merely hoping to find a fix for the 10%. But there's some goodness it's adding to what I already thought was good which is throwing me for a loop. They are helping alot of stuff. I'm actually hearing MORE detail (who woulda thunk it)... But I don't know if it's bringing detail in these areas, allowing me to actually hear stuff I didn't hear before, or it's merely just some type of volume shift here and there that's louder than the old and making me believe I'm hearing new sounds/detail come out? I guess that doesn't matter. I can play them louder without "ewww" setting in. Pretty convinced of that and this is a good thing. However, I think the crossovers giveth and they taketh away. I feel like I'm losing something as well. Something about piano.... not chords, but individual hits/notes that is perhaps less distinct/crisp? And 'some' vocals sound different to me and on first blush (I have to listen more)... I'm thinking maybe a deader or flatter feel. Less breathyness? IDK - Still too early. I put the old x-overs back in and I'm going to leave them there for a day or 2 to get them better ingrained. It's been a bad weekend and I need to clear my head. I'm not done yet but will hurry up if you all need to get these in the mail somewhere.

Dean - You mentioned Adrian Belew on the best guitarist thread. Do you have King Chrimson "Thrak"? I hope so! If so, give a listen with some volume (tho' you have 25% klipschorns darn it) Track 10 "One Time" It's one of our test tracks. Yummy stick playing, and Adrian's vocal which can be harsh/irritating. One must hear the strings hit the wood the vibration/buzz. I still get that, but there's something 'lower' or 'more' about it that I like. His voice when he gets going. I don't cringe as much now. These handle it better. I can tolerate his vocal loud now in these parts. Still the sibilance issue though.... SSSSSsssstanding on the SSSSSSSsssshifting SSSSSsssssands. God forbid I listen to test tracks that are familiar to more here.

[meagain]

And another test song (not in the main test song loop, but there nonetheless)... This would be more common. Sting - 10 Summoner's Tales - 7 days. (I don't think this is a good recording)... An example of my 'crescendo' comment above. Sounds grreat till the "Monday blablabla" part swarms in. Wanted to listen to the part before that loud, but would want to crank down the volume when the "Monday" part comes in. The darnedest thing about these crossovers - is the volume of that doesn't leap out freekishly anymore. I don't cringe. It's like.... (words are hardish).... it "flows more" into it. It just sorta seques into it nicely and more pleasantly. Volume-wise I guess. I like this! If the Peach had a remote (wouldn't that be nice!).... I wouldn't reach to turn it down? It's weird though. I'm not used to this type of thing. Hence - confusing.

[pauln]

"Like there is a magical fairy inside the preamp that chilled things out for me."

Meagain, this is an improvement from the misuse of "attenuated" to mean louder...? Now I have pimiento cheese to clean up!

Hope you have a better one this week and get this all sorted out.

Pauln

[DrWho]

Who - But in the end, does it matter? For me, all that matters is what my ears tell me. I don't care what a particular x-over tests at because it's what I hear that counts. I just want the tech part of it to tell me which zone I need to delve into to save me time/money. Get me there a bit and my ears/brain will take care of the rest. I don't care what caps measure at or compare at - all I know is boy oh boy... they sure make a difference and I can totally 'get' all these people out there swapping & analyzing caps in their amps, etc. I get it. Whether personalized crossover designs add color or not, doesn't matter to me. It's like art. I can't diss the newer khorn crossover design because I've yet to hear it. I imagine the ak-3's will give me an idea since they're fairly new (I know there is an ak-4 but IDK about 5?)... But I'd be willing to wager a bet that they aren't going to sound as good as these home-made jobies I have here. I betcha. My gut says so. I hope I'm wrong cuz I'm really tireing of spending money and messing around with speakers. Basically I'm saying if you visited here, I'd rather you put away your test gear, sit & chill, see if your foot starts tapping without you thinking about it, your mind wanders a bit, something makes you smile with it's goodness, or some little tiny piece in a song was just flat out 'beautiful' to you.

Ummm - but yea, I want to see the testing for kicks. LOL

OMG! WHY do I have this brain defect that keeps forgetting to dampen the horns? I'm going to change my signature so I remember. Yes, it's come to that.

Dean - oh boy, we gots ta talk. We're hearing things we 'never' heard before (or noticed). WTH?

Does it matter? Yes - and I agree with everything you just said.

I'm by no means a seasoned expert with measurements, but everything I've seen, when properly interpreted, always correlates to what my ears tell me. The trick is getting a good measurement so that you can interpret it correctly - which means using your ears. I get the impression that people feel that measuring means you turn off your ears. It's the complete opposite actually. []

You don't use measurements to quantify that something sounds good - just look at the amplifier engineers in the 70's slaving to get a flat frequency response...a classic example of bad measuring (because ears weren't involved). Eventually they started using their ears again and were able to quantify what was sounding bad (TIM distortion from too much negative feedback). Amplifier design improved because they were able to find a measurement to quantify something that sounds bad. In other words, measurements are only good at quantifying things that sound bad. We don't know what perfect sound is, but we have a pretty good handle on what sounds bad. And just to stress the point, we know what sounds bad because we use our ears and listen to music.

All that to say, something doesn't sound right to your ears with your setup. Whatever that may be, I believe wholeheartedly that the correct measurement will identify it. If no measurement can find it, then the science 'simply' needs to be improved and then all future designs can benefit from this deeper understanding. Granted, a single end-user like yourself is simply interested in enjoying your own music and probably isn't interested in advancing the science, but I highly doubt current science is incapable of finding the problem and choosing a solution that is pleasant to your ears. In my opinion, good engineering is art.

Just to put in one caveat - let's say you enjoy the sound of something classically determined as "bad sounding" by the measurements...then you ignore the measurement and trust what your ears tell you. But this doesn't mean the science/measurement is false....it just means that a broader understanding of all the variables at play is required. The measured frequency response of a speaker in a room is but one variable among hundreds, many of which the music listener can never have control over (like the source material). I think some might refer to this as "system synergy".

Enough philosophical mumbo jumbo - the proof is in the pudding. I would love to rock out to some tunes at your place, but you've got me scared into thinking you've got some nasty sounding khorns...maybe you'll need to drag out the cornwalls []

[pauln]

Excellent post Who. I just had an idea!

There must be a way to do RTA measurements over the internet so that a skilled distant party could manage the screen console remotely and help someone tackle issues like this. I could even imagine this as a potential home business consulting service. As a proof of concept, what do you think would be the possibility of trying this with Meagain? Seems like observing the measurement on one end with the ears listening on the other end there might be a possibility that sound issues could be addressed and analysed in real time.

[DrWho]

Interesting idea Paul...I could see that being possible with Remote Desktop, but I only know how to do that with Windows machines...

Another option would be for the person to measure the impulse response themself, perhaps being walked through the process over the phone as there are a few setup and calibration issues to be addressed (nothing too complicated, but you gotta be careful that it's done right). This impulse could then be sent around and any software can be used for analysis. It's just a .wav file. The biggest issue is getting everything calibrated and obtaining meaningful data.

I've actually been thinking of putting together a measurement package that could be mailed around that way everyone is working with the same thing. I think it could be done for around $800. It would include a laptop with installed software, calibrated microphone, all of the necessary connectivity, and can be calibrated ahead of time. All the person would need to do is position the mic and hit go. It's well beyond my financial means right now, but spread among several people it wouldn't be that bad. Maybe I can hit up some relatives and then rent out the equipment, eventually making enough to cover the investment. For someone only looking to do a few measurements, a $200 investment is a bit steep (assuming they have a computer available)....but something like $30 + shipping wouldn't be too bad - especially if it eliminates the headache of "guessing".

The thing with measuring is that you'll want to do before and after measurements to make sure the solution actually fixed the problem. So though I could visit someone and measure, you still won't know if the changes were successful. If your ears are happy then you don't have to worry about it, but it's possible that other issues are at play and the solution only fixes part of the problem. Basically you can only fix one problem at a time. If fixing involved a crossover repair, then I would have to take a bunch of parts with me and that's just as expensive. Making two trips isn't always possible either.