Help as to Where Crossover Points Are in AA and AK-3?

[meagain]

Speakerfritz - I shouldn't have to have a sub with khorns. My other pair has great bass with aa/Jrs so it's either this AK-3 or something 'else' amiss. I have to figure out what's wrong in woofer hell even before I'm done sorting out tweeter hell. It's a shame cuz those ak-3's sure know how to properly handle a tweeter section and detail. I might be set with them if I could get low end peppered in there properly.

Cuz honestly, any crossover that makes the speakers cause ear-buzz and looks like this.... can't be 'correct'. No way.

[meagain]

Speakerfritz - My husband out of the blue just brought up active crossovers. Sounds interesting but they're likely very expensive.

I think I might have found a home with these ak-3's. Super clarity and detail all over the place. Hearing new things and minute nuances to most everything I didn't think would be audible. I don't have to have my ears right dead center of the sofa where I can't move them 4" and everything gets jazzed up. Instruments sound more natural, horns, etc. sound 'proper'. Bass seems to work, but it's wimpy compared to the mid/treble. But what's there is SO crisp. We've been tripping out on stuff like "listen to the strings hitting the wood", etc. - then replaying it back a few times. I think if I could EQ the bass up, it might be really pretty. But now it's overly crisp and not warm. I wouldn't mind changing the taps on the squawker down a couple db but they don't allow it. Maybe it can be improved with new caps or other tweeks. I wonder also what the difference is between an ak-3 and ak-4 and if it's good, what has to be done to get there. I'm still wanting to disconnect this bass bin x-over to try with the k-55-v & vice versa cuz I want to rule out if I have a skittish driver.

I think I'm happy today. I want to thank you guys for all your help & advise you've given. Currently taking suggestions as to why the bass might be wimpy. Bob tested the top bin x-over, but not the bass so perhaps the caps there went awry. I wonder if it gets more abuse, etc.

[Deang]

Cuz honestly, any crossover that makes the speakers cause ear-buzz and looks like this.... can't be 'correct'. No way.

Let me guess: that's the ALKJr. with the squawker dialed down. You have diminished bass output, which I can guarantee has nothing to do with the network -- because the Type A, Type AA, ALK, and ALKJr all use the same 2.5mH single coil for the low pass. Now, if you set the taps on the ALKJr to 4 and 0 (where most of the Klipsch networks have them), you'll raise the entire midrange section up, which will flatten the curve. Of course, bass output is down, so it will sound bright as hell -- but the curve will look better overall. Now, you can't blame a network for non-flat response if you're the one attenuating the midrange with the autoformer -- which of course makes the tweeter look (and sound) much hotter than it really is. This is another reason I quit building the ALKJr.:People talk about "living in the midrange", but as soon as you give them a choice they take it down, and then start having problems with how they're perceiving the tweeter output -- then you have to sell them on the idea of tweeter attenuators. Now they've pulled down both the midrange and treble, which in the end means all they really wanted was to hear more bass!

[meagain]

ALKJr. on taps 5/2. Love the bass on them but who knows. Yes, I posted up above somewhere that it would seem to make sense to make the squawk on them hotter at 4/0. Really? The stock Klipsch are set at 4/0? I didn't know that. Seems most have theirs set at 4/x or 5/2. I don't even recall a post saying they did 4/0. I mean, 5/2 is only the 2nd option from 'most hot'. I suppose that'll suck up a couple of dbs.

OK, unless there's a way to combine these Jensen AA's with the Jr's.... I guess I'd opt for the Jrs cuz they bring more detail. I like the "prettyness" of those AA's though. Dang. But I'd rather have the detail and nuke down the tweeter with the EQ. Maybe those V-caps would provide the answer. Then it's a question of money. I was just hopeing to not have to rely on the DEQ to such an extent to where I can't listen to it without it. At worst, I hoped to only 'fine-tune' with it and not go Rambo with it. I've never heard an 'A' so I've no clue. (those Jensen AA's do lower that bump from the Jr's though).

But now these ak-3's got me all in a tizzy cuz they are spitting detail all over the place. More than the others for sure. It's actually freeking BOTH of us out. I'm trying not to peg it as 'analytical' or 'sterile' yet cuz the bass is very weak. Perhaps if I can fix that to have low end peppering everything - it could be a winner. It's screaming for warmth. IDK how it 'should' sound. It's also doing something weird with power/volume. I have to turn it up louder on the Peach dial. But the overly-analyticalness of it (lack of bass?) makes me want to turn it down at the same time. It's odd. Dean - if you came over, you would not want to put Korn in it. You would want to listen to a flute solo. But maybe the steeper slope lovers are a bit on to something?

I still think it's a good thing to have the squawk taps available. But I think if I were king (crossover builder)... if I had to pick one, I'd probably slap on some type of tweeter attenuator given the hundreds of posts found on the 'net complaining of brightness. Personally, I'd want taps for all 3 sections. LOL

[mikebse2a3]

Lisa I had tried the ALK networks and also a friend of mine has used them also.

4-0 = -3.8db

5-2 = -4.6db

4-X= -6.2db

The 4-0 and 5-2 are the closest settings to the AK-3 Network Squawker Level

The 4-X is very close to an AK-2 Network Squawker Level

In the two rooms/setups I've heard them in 4-0 and 5-2 gave the best balance and to me in that the tweeter blended with the Squawker Better than the 4-X setting.

I agree with Dean's Observation after looking at the last picture you posted the Squawker Level looks to be set to low and I do understand why that RTA response would make me believe the Tweeter sound would stand out as somewhat not blended with the squawker and possibly irritating.

Anyway if you are liking the AK-3 Klipschorns except for the Bass why don't you work on that issue at this time. I would suggest to start with just in the area of 250Hz and below with no more than about 3db to 4db of boost. Also I suggest keeping both channels adjustments the same for now because it would be a very rare instance were adjusting one channel different from the other wouldn't cause more problems than it would help. Depending on your room structure you could/will suffer Low Frequencies losses and this could bring you back some of the tonal balance you are missing. If this seems to help then you could spend more time with the PEQ to get the smoothest Balance at your primary listening positions.

Anyway just a suggestion.

mike tn[]

Edit: After looking at more of your RTA readings I would not boost the 160Hz area any. Also the KHorn itself in the area around 250Hz region has some loss and some correction in this area can improve it. The main thing with the EQ is don't attempt perfection on the RTA and keep the adjustments reasonable.

[meagain]

This is a reading at listening position of the ak-3/k-55-m/k-77-m combo. At listening position, the tweeter is really nuked. Seems overkill. I had the rta really blasting.

[meagain]

Yes, it's Meagain..... So, I've fixed the bass on my ak-3's. I'm happy.

Now, I finally got around to checking squawker drivers (m vs. v solder). I wrestled the ak-3's tophat to see what a non-ak3 would do and find out why the ak-3's are fixing my 6500k issue. I listened to music without the tweeter.

First the V solder. When the 'bad parts' came in like muted trumpet = pierce (less so, but surely there). Hmmm.... Then moved the M into place. Sound was richer/lower sounding. When the bad parts came in, they were in line with the rest of the music, didn't jump out, didn't pierce. Hmmm..... The V clearly either goes up higher, has a different range, or is hotter at 6ish k. Surely when one adds any tweeter to a squawk already piercy, it's just a buildup of agony.

When I hooked the tweeter up, I still contend that even with the M driver, the AA/Jrs. run this area hotter than the ak-3 so I think my issue might be a combo of squawker/xover. (I much prefer the sound with the AA's with this test over Jrs... seemed to sound less grainy)

These squawker drivers are different! And act differently with the
same crossover! Darned things.... The soldered V clearly goes up
considerably higher at the 6k area. What I'm questioning now is which
pair is 'right'? Hopefully it's not the V! I must say I'm finding more detail in the ak-3/k-55-m combo across the board (stock, 13-14 year old caps). What I initially pegged as a better crossover over foofoo rebuilds.... we might have actually been listening to a better quality squawker. That the squawk gave the detail instead? Heck, maybe the polarity is off from the factory? Hmmm..... Unfortunately, from what I understand, if the ESR is going to go out of wack, it would go down instead of hot - right? So maybe the M went downhill. If I had my druthers, I'd sent all 4 drivers out. Meanwhile, I'm going to slap the ohm meter on these to see if anythings jumping out.

Bob? Is it difficult/risky to open these k-55 drivers to properly test the ohm on the leads?

[BEC]

You don't have to open them up to measure the DCR of the coil.  Just take the wires loose from the crossover and measure it on the wires going to the drivers.  Should read around 10 to ll ohms.

Bob

[meagain]

k-55-v: 10.9, 10.5

k-55-m: 9.9, 10.2

Meter probes touching each other: .2

Being in audio Twilight Zone: Priceless (not!)

[BEC]

k-55-v:  10.9, 10.5

k-55-m:  9.9, 10.2

Meter probes touching each other:  .2 

Being in audio Twilight Zone:  Priceless (not!) 

Not too bad off, but I would have expected each pair to test a bit closer than those.

Bob

[meagain]

Might be my cheapo meter. I've repeated the test a few times though. It fluxes a bit. Going to do it a few more times before calling it.

So is it worse to be on the low end or high? And, does this correlate to 'loss'? And a lower number means more loss and a higher number means healthier? Or no?

What's sad is, despite sounding very different and them acting very different, right now, since things are always a**-backwards for me - I'd bet all 4 drivers would get a clean bill of health. Things that should sound better, sound worse. Things that test good, sound like crap. Things that test bad, sound good. And..... Things that are supposed to work, don't. .....that last one is for you Bob.

[DrWho]

Well it needs to be quiet in the room and the speaker can't be vibrating when you take the measurement. Otherwise the voice coil moves and it generates a voltage which throws off the impedance measurement.

[BEC]

No extra points for being high or low.  The DCR test really just tests coil integrity and matched between two in a pair is a nice thing to have.  Having the impedance matched is the real goal and that is not so easy to measure.  

Bob Crites

[meagain]

I also have to keep in mind that I'm comparing a k-401 to a k-400 with no damping.

Bob - I checked one of my 55-v's washer a year ago when I was complaining of my pierce issues. Dean suggested double-checking to see if it was there. Envisioning it in my mind, I didn't see any crumbling or bits stuck to the driver screen (like I noticed on a Cornwall)....... But since I have new washers laying around, it might be worth taking the 5 minutes to inspect or toss them in. In my mind, the obvious purpose is to avoid a metal to metal contact for vibration? Or, does it serve some other purpose as well. I would think that even if the washer hardened, that might be a sufficient bridge? Also, I can envision if said washer is askew even the slightest bit after screwing it down - this has to have an effect on sound quality (distortion). Do I have this about right?

[BEC]

The washers should be there and should be compressible enough to give a good seal between the driver and horn.  Also, as they age, or perhaps from overtightening, they sometimes expand inward constricting the horn throat.

Paul Klipsch said that a properly mounted K-400 did not need any dampening (specifically that the horn did not ring).  Of course a lot of people here seem to think he didn't know what he was talking about.

Bob

[meagain]

Been running tests.... 3 different tweeters.... amazing how they all look different. The AA's and Jrs charts look 100% identical except for how they handle the same tweeter. The AA seems a tad hotter in the squawk but it's miniscule - like 1db. They go their separate ways at the tweeter.

Do any of these 2 squawk pics look odd? I'm still seeing on the charts that the M dives down earlier than the V?

Squawk V

[meagain]

Squawk M LOLLL!!! Look at the big difference at exactly 6k? It's like what?? 8-9 db? (higher at 250 also) but clearly, a HUGE discrepancy at exactly 6k. This is especially dramatic since the M runs hotter than the V!!! Same crossover, same everything for the test.

[meagain]

Bob or anyone? Is it possible to run my ak-3 x-overs bypassing the woofer by putting the speaker wire right on the 'input' on the ak-3's barrier strip you built (and disconnect the bass bin wires also)? And, would I be able to do the same thing with my regular crossovers? To see what the ak3 does to these squawkers? I think I can, but I don't want to hurt anything.

[meagain]

I mean, if one looks at Bob's charts on page 13 of the M vs. soldered V.... at the -10 mark at exactly 6k, there's a big discrepancy between the 2. So I now question if I have a driver issue cuz it looks strongly to me, that the M just naturally dips exactly where I need it to and maybe we're just "M" type of people here at my house. When looking at the charts, it seems clear as day to me? And it seems to correlate with how the 2 squawkers poop out for me. And if true, I can see where some people have complaints about sibilance, brightness, harshness?

Oh god! I'm such an idiot! I can swap drivers! LOL What a moron.

[Mike Lindsey]

Man 'o man, what a mess! Maybe I'm deaf or something, because all I did was hook the same gear up as you to my La Scala's with ALK networks and I absolutely love them! Granted, I have since added 511B's and BEC tweets, which I think make them sound even better, but they still sounded fantastic with the stock horns. Everyone that has come to my house to listen to my rig has loved them.

Geez, I hope you get this figured out, or move on to something other than horns. I think I would rather stab myself with a fork than go thru what you are going thru. []

Mike