sfogg Posted March 8, 2007 Share Posted March 8, 2007 Dodging...dodging...dodging. What is the matter? Can'tanswer the question? Or do you know that the answer to the questionflatly contradicts what you have been rambling on about. Shawn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parrot Posted March 8, 2007 Share Posted March 8, 2007 If the efforts you undertook in making your room state of the art acoustically are something you no longer want people to know about, then I won't mention it again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfogg Posted March 8, 2007 Share Posted March 8, 2007 "You know what pings me off about this forum, Shawn? Well I'll tell ya. Everything is a secret here. You have to painfully extract every last drop of blood from the stone. So what is the the 'huge difference'?" It is not a secret at all and all one had to do was ask. Parrot has been attempting to paint the picture that the Jubilee should use the K403 horn (which has a collapsing polar pattern) over the K510/402 (which do not collapse) because the older Heritage speakers K400 horn also has a collapsing polar pattern. However, he hasn't thought this through. As far as the huge difference.... what is the first difference that comes to mind between the home Jubilee and say a K'Horn? Might it be that the Jubilee is a two way and the K'Horn is a three way? Humm... how does that relate to the position Parrot is trying to take? Well lets see... the Jubilee with the K403 would start having its polar patter collapse somewhere. For argument sake lets keep it easy and say 4k. With the K'horn the K400 probably starts collapsing around the same place too. Sounds similar right? Wrong. In the K'Horn the system crosses over to a tweeter, at 4500hz in the latest K'Horns, so the system gets out of the horn with the collapsing polar patter pretty quickly after it starts to narrow and transitions to a new horn that basically 'resets' the polar pattern above that point. The K77 will start collapsing too at some point but it is going to be at a much higher frequency then the K400. So that means the K'Horn isn't going to just start narrowing at 4kHz and keep doing that the whole way up. Which is what the Jubilee with a K403 would do. The K'Horn, by virtue of it being a three way, will have considerably more off axis power radiated into the room then the K403 would on the top end. Humm.... so how would we radiate more power into the room on the top end with a two way speaker? Might it be we use a horn with constant coverage? Such as the K402/K510? Yup.... Shawn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jwc Posted March 8, 2007 Share Posted March 8, 2007 Shawn. Could you tell me again where the 510 starts to roll off in the high end with the peavy driver you have. Is it around 8, 10 or 12 KHz? jc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edwinr Posted March 8, 2007 Share Posted March 8, 2007 I can't see how a much smaller horn is going to maintain the collapsing polar pattern. Or if it does it would be at a reduced level. I thought the tweeter horn was merely to extend the frequency response out to 20 Khz. Also my understanding too, is that higher frequencies tend to be more directional anyway. I thought the whole point of using horns (apart from increased sensitivity) was to reduce the interaction of the room. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfogg Posted March 8, 2007 Share Posted March 8, 2007 JC, It isn't the horn that rolls off, it is the driver. The difference is some horns basically focus the sound more and more to act as a form of EQ to try to compensate for a drivers rolloff. While other horns (CD/constant coverage) do not do this so where a driver starts rolling off is where the system rolls off. The Peavey on the K510 starts rolling off around 5kHz. Shawn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted March 8, 2007 Share Posted March 8, 2007 I guess it rolls off at about 6dB/octave like most of the bigger compression drivers? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfogg Posted March 8, 2007 Share Posted March 8, 2007 "I can't see how a much smaller horn is going to maintain the collapsing polar pattern. " Because the horn/driver is designed for a higher frequency range. Therefor it will collapse at a higher frequency then a horn/driver designed to go lower. "I thought the tweeter horn was merely to extend the frequency response out to 20 Khz. " Or about 10k or 12k with the K77. Speaker design is juggling numerous variables, not just one. "Also my understanding too, is that higher frequencies tend to be more directional anyway." Not inherently. It is just that many speakers (just about all cone/dome speakers) tend to beam the high end but that is just due to radiator size and wavelength. "I thought the whole point of using horns (apart from increased sensitivity) was to reduce the interaction of the room." Yes, horns can reduce interaction with the room because they have a more limited dispersion then cones/domes. There is still interaction of course which is why power response is still important. From a room interaction standpoint constant coverage horns are a very good thing. The sound you hear at your listening position is a composite of the on axis and off axis response of a speaker. If the off axis FR isn't the same as the on axis it will influence what you hear in room. In other words say if the off axis is rolled off on the top end (but on axis is flat) what you hear at the listening position in a room could end up lacking in HF. Shawn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfogg Posted March 8, 2007 Share Posted March 8, 2007 Dean, " I guess it rolls off at about 6dB/octave like most of the bigger compression drivers?" The Peavey? Yup, right around there. I use a 6dB/octave shelving filter to get the driver flat again. Kind of crazy that the VC in my tweeter is dramatically larger then what is in my woofers. Shawn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted March 8, 2007 Share Posted March 8, 2007 Man I have a constant headache from all the collapse polar patterns I've been listening too. My doctor says they may have caused a severe brain tumor. I told him he was nuts it was really caused by all the time delay issues........... Oh god now I have to get jubs with an active crossover just to live a few more years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parrot Posted March 8, 2007 Share Posted March 8, 2007 Yeah but don't you enjoy these free speaker design lectures? Remember, you get what you pay for. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jwc Posted March 8, 2007 Share Posted March 8, 2007 JC, It isn't the horn that rolls off, it is the driver. The difference is some horns basically focus the sound more and more to act as a form of EQ to try to compensate for a drivers rolloff. While other horns (CD/constant coverage) do not do this so where a driver starts rolling off is where the system rolls off. The Peavey on the K510 starts rolling off around 5kHz. Shawn Yes Shawn. That is what I meant...I just didn't ask the question correctly. That was what I needed. So....I know this isn't what you would do but would it seem reasonable to attempt a three way setup w/o EQ crossing the mid-tweet around 5000-6000Hz. With a passive. The "mid" is the k69 on a 510. jc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfogg Posted March 8, 2007 Share Posted March 8, 2007 "So....I know this isn't what you would do but would it seem reasonableto attempt a three way setup w/o EQ crossing the mid-tweet around5000-6000Hz. With a passive. The "mid" is the k69 on a 510." I don't know where the k69 rolls off. Yes, you could use it to its rolloff point as a mid-range driver if desired. If you can though I'd suggest trying it two way. Shawn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jwc Posted March 8, 2007 Share Posted March 8, 2007 I sure will Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bodcaw boy Posted March 8, 2007 Share Posted March 8, 2007 Man. Can't this thread about "questions for Roy". Is there any chance we could get the "Commercial Audio" section of this forum popular. I think this would eliminate a bunch of Bull$hit. jc i tell you what jc, you post there and i will answer....i have some curves for you!! where do you want them? have a blessed day, roy delgado Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jwc Posted March 8, 2007 Share Posted March 8, 2007 Deal. Let's go there. Just a sec. jc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jwc Posted March 8, 2007 Share Posted March 8, 2007 Thread in Commercial started. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bodcaw boy Posted March 8, 2007 Share Posted March 8, 2007 done. have a blessed day, roy delgado Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bodcaw boy Posted March 8, 2007 Share Posted March 8, 2007 music?? what's that? actually i listen to pink noise..... i figure it has every song written and every song that is ever going to be written in it... LOL! That is by far the most awesome quote ever [][Y] hey doc, i kinda stole it from another thief. this may be before your time. there was a show called mash and there was an episode where one of the lead characters, hawkeye, was asked whether he had brought any books to korea and he said "just one; the dictionay. i figured it had all the other books in it." now that was funny! have a blessed day, roy delgado Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bodcaw boy Posted March 8, 2007 Share Posted March 8, 2007 . and the jub is ugly?? have a blessed day, roy delgado Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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