How do Tubes sound?

[colterphoto1]

I just had my first good taste of tube sound, thanks to HarryO. (see thread 'Colter Needs Tubes')

I'm just wondering, did I really hear what I thought I heard? I didn't want to have any preconceived notions, but would be interested in other's experiences with adding Tubes to the mix.

I'm perfectly happy with my Yamaha HT receiver and setup, but I have a separate room that houses my Khorns very elegantly. I can use anything I want in this room because it is strictly for 2 channel listening. I have a little HK 430 in there now and listen to some FM and a CD walkman (I know I know). I'm thinking of moving my Thorens TT in there since the HT room is too bouncy- I could wall mount the TT here.

So before I take the leap? What is the difference and what would be a good entry level piece? I'm thinking integrated but could go any route.

Thanks

Michael

[Mallette]

Boy, will you get a LOT of advice...

Entry level power: Good rebuilt or modded Dynaco ST-80

Entry level integrated: Scott 299

There really were not too many really crappy VT designs that have survived, so have fun.

Dave

[rcarlton]

I've been toying with a similar idea. I use my HT setup for 2-channel listening. Thought about moving a McIntosh MC-275 into the mix, with it hooked to the K-horns, a bridged MC-250 to the center, and a MC-250 for the rear LaScala's.

Upstairs I have tubes of sorts (MAC-1700 hybrid) with my Cornwall's. I have heard tubes at the Pilgrimage in Hope and at several DFW-Hornhead events. I have some listening experience with tubes. Definitely very green when it come to tubes.

BTW I have been told many times that a Scott 299 would be the best way to enter the tube world.

[HarryO]

Michael,

Ok, here I go. Match your equipment. Your vintage KHorns aren't exactly what I would describe as "entry level". I would kill or trade my left ... for a room with the acoustic possibilities your room has. You listened to an entry level system last night. I auditioned it for you just so you can get an idea of tube possibilities. I saw no need to blow you away with a $2,000 amp and $2,000 preamp to start out with. The common thought is more bucks = more sound. True to a point but the returns diminish as you spend more to gain a little. Sure, who doesn't want more and cleaner power. You might spend 1 or 2 hours a night in the 2 channel room. With a nice system it might increase to 3-4 hours a night.

Whatever you start out with, find a nice power system at a good price and trading up or upgrading is always cost effective. IMHO, you don't have to spend a fortune to get fantastic sound. Take your time, pick a few trusted informed brains, and make a couple of road trips to listen to the different flavors available (per Arfandbark). You ain't listenin' to bookshelf speakers so don't choose power like you are. Do the big Ks justice, do yourself justice. It ain't gonna cost that much to do it right. Match them up buddy.

I personally truly believe in seperates. Monoblocks and a seperate preamp. Keep it simple and clean. Stereo power amp next, then integrated.

HarryO

[leok]

"You ain't listenin' to bookshelf speakers so don't choose power like you are."

No, bookshelf speakers are less efficient and require more power for equivalent amplitude than larger, more efficient speakers.

So, go for high quality (low distortion) at low power. If you can get some power with that too, fine, but don't trade away quality at low power.

Leo

[Bill H.]

Michael,

Curious what the folks you Work with think about tubes?????????????? Trey, Amy, maybe even Mr. Klipsch himself..........or Stephen.......[*-)]

[colterphoto1]

"You ain't listenin' to bookshelf speakers so don't choose power like you are."

No, bookshelf speakers are less efficient and require more power for equivalent amplitude than larger, more efficient speakers.

So, go for high quality (low distortion) at low power. If you can get some power with that too, fine, but don't trade away quality at low power.

Leo

Thanks Leo, but I think what Harry meant was 'don't cheap out Colter, you've got some great speakers and room there', not necessarily about efficiency, although I understand what you're saying. Harry is behooving to go beyond 'entry level' and I understand that, this is why I'm asking for the input.

I was shocked at how great the bass sounded at very low levels, and without any tone control or loudness compensation, just right out of the box!

What are the options with Mac gear? I used to have one of those big laboratory looking ones, I think a S/S 250? (it was rated at 50 wpc, don't know why I ever sold it)

[colterphoto1]

Michael,

Curious what the folks you Work with think about tubes?????????????? Trey, Amy, maybe even Mr. Klipsch himself..........or Stephen.......[*-)]

Mark Kaufman has the Cayene setup in our Khorn listening room. It's an integrated and tube CD player but I'll bet it's beyond my budget. I will poll some of the guys at work. I know Trey is dead set against the idea- sorry Trey, it's an adventure I think I want to take, but I've backed out of stuff before.

Heck I toyed with the idea but never got a functional darkroom up in 12 years of photography....

[Coytee]

Not integrated but IMHO, it's clearly worth hearing a pair of bridged SE-OTL's presuming 4 wpc can handle the volume desires for that room.

Just so you know, I had in the system (Khorns) at one time or another:

Wright 2A3's

McIntosh MC-30's

Transcendent SE-OTL's (pair bridged)

Admit that I really liked them ALL but felt at the lower volume levels, the OTL's simply had something about them...

(none ended up satisfying my louder habits though)

[mas]

Curious what the folks you Work with think about tubes?????????????? Trey, Amy, maybe even Mr. Klipsch himself..........or Stephen.......[*-)]

FWIW, here is PWK's opinion, at least at the time of the letter...

Just beware, there are many members of the TubeTaliban on this site who find it heretical to suggest that both SS amps as well as tube amps can sound acceptable.

[*-)]

PWK TubesVsSS.pdf

[colterphoto1]

Curious what the folks you Work with think about tubes?????????????? Trey, Amy, maybe even Mr. Klipsch himself..........or Stephen.......[*-)]

FWIW, here is PWK's opinion, at least at the time of the letter...

Just beware, there are many members of the TubeTaliban on this site who find it heretical to suggest that both SS amps as well as tube amps can sound acceptable.

[*-)]

Thanks for that Mark. It suggests that I could use EITHER effectively, no?

[rcarlton]

What are the options with Mac gear? I used to have one of those big laboratory looking ones, I think a S/S 250? (it was rated at 50 wpc, don't know why I ever sold it)

colterphoto1,

Sounds like you had a McIntosh MC-250. Many feel it has a "tube-like" sound.

[mas]

It suggests that I could use EITHER effectively, no?

Absolutely!

I just never thought that such a notion would relegate me to the fringes of society. But looking around, it seems like a much more sane place to be!

[]

[colterphoto1]

Yes I think that might have been it. Dang, screwed up again! Maybe that's what I need?

[seti]

Michael,

 Curious what the folks you Work with think about tubes??????????????  Trey, Amy, maybe even Mr. Klipsch himself..........or Stephen.......[*-)]

Mark Kaufman has the Cayene setup in our Khorn listening room. It's an integrated and tube CD player but I'll bet it's beyond my budget. I will poll some of the guys at work. I know Trey is dead set against the idea- sorry Trey, it's an adventure I think I want to take, but I've backed out of stuff before.

Heck I toyed with the idea but never got a functional darkroom up in 12 years of photography.... 

I was really really suprised at the Cayinsetup and how good they sounded. If I hadn't heard them for myself I wouldn't have believed the quality. If you go McIntosch or Cayin you wouldn't be sorry. Also why not shop the tube integrated section of audiogon http://buy0.audiogon.com/cgia/fsb.pl?intatube&1&ctg&st1 you can buy and sell till you get what you want at a good price. Horns love tubes : )

[jt1stcav]

The obvious choices are any vintage tube integrated amp or receiver upgraded by Craig; I'm sure any of 'em will get you excited about the tube sound with your Klipschorns. Or pick up his new VRD or Mark's pCAT monoblocks and a Peach or Blueberry Xtreme. Your budget will dictate what direction you can go, but there are all types of tube amps/preamps/integrateds, new or used in all price catagories to choose from (check out eBay for a sampling of what I'm talking about).

Even my affordable 300B SET amp and 6SN7 linestage pre from Hong Kong does wonders for me, especially now with a pair of cherry RB-75s providing the tunes!

I don't know how well I can explain the tube sound...to my ears switching to valves was a revelation. I'm not dissing SS (I loved my transistorized Macs and Carvers), but there seems to be a certain air or presence to the overall soundstage that wasn't as noticable when transistors were driving my loudspeakers. Call it coloration or warmth, but my brain seems to enjoy the sonic characteristics tubes provide (even more so when you're tube-rolling and altering the flavor-of-the-day even more). Are tubes more neutral? More realistic? I don't think so...just different, in a way that's pleasing to me (remember, MaxG switched from tubes back to SS, so anything's possible with both topologies).

Just remember while auditioning different types of tube amps to be open minded and give each design a chance to soak into your head. There are excellent representatives from both PP and SET designs, along with SEP (a li'l 2 or 3 watt 6BQ5 Magnavox console amp provided one of the sweetest tones imaginable) and OTL, etc. I'm sure others with loads more experience with tube audio will chime in here with expert advice for you to consider.

Good luck in your search, Michael.

Edit: I also owned a McIntosh MC250 for a time...IMO one of the best sounding SS amps I ever owned (and similar sounding to tube amps as others also state). Had I not gone the tube route, I would still be enjoying my music with an MC250 (or two...my bro once borrowed my amp and bought himself another MC250 and bridged 'em mono for his AE Aegis Two loudspeakers...very sweet indeed)!

[LarryC]

Curious what the folks you Work with think about tubes?????????????? Trey, Amy, maybe even Mr. Klipsch himself..........or Stephen.......[*-)]

I was surprised and very struck that, early on, Klipsch only played SS equipment at the pilgrimages, maybe because they had the Aragon line. I never liked the grainy, flat, closed-in and homogenous character of what I heard. I think I gradually came to understand it, though --

Because Klipsch across the board is very dynamic and has great transient response, the transients of SS, which I think are artificial to some degree, really stood out in their speakers. It made them sound (superficially?) sensational.

The music they played was almost uniformly hard rhythm with lots of transients, like Animusic. Again, superficially (IMO!) amazing transients and liveliness from their speakers.

In other words, classical music and tubes were nowhere to be found. I dragged a few classical CDs to a couple of pilgrimages, and even donated a set of classical CDs to the cause -- and it turned out that Mark K had some good knowledge of classical. I think classical is VERY important for designing and voicing speakers, since the line HAS to be able to play classical extremely well for customers and owners. PWK certainly had that as part of his design and marketing orientation.

As for the emergence of tubes there, I understand that Mark heard Cayin at Acoustic Sounds in Salina, KS, when he selling them on carrying Heritage (I had tried to sell him on tubes before, while he remained appropriately stoic). The appearance of a Cayin integrated and CD player at the last pilgrimage was a delight. Some time, I'd like to see/hear them use a BBX or Peach and VRDs or pCATs!

Or -- alternatively -- I'd like to see and hear an excellent BAT setup like Boomac's BAT preamp and amp, and a BAT CD player since Allan is thrilled with his (I've heard Scott's but not Allan's). Why? Because BAT is a phenomenally successful and prestigious brand that sounds great, doesn't cost a BIG fortune, and is already carried by many great stores around the country -- the kind I think I'd like to see carry Klipsch and Klipsch Heritage (the cheapest BAT preamp and amp are both Stereophile Class A).

In my opinion and apparently many on the forum, tubes take an extra step into how music, voices and instruments REALLY sound, and, except with the better SS electronics, surrounding the notes with superior space and silence. I think they also provide a richer and more realistic variety of vocal and instrument tone qualities. OTOH, there can be a startling clarity to SS bass notes compared with tubes, so it's not all one-way, again my opinion of course. Moreover, I believe that tubes have a more accurate rendition of transients -- and, I think that only the outstanding speaker transient response of horns really brings that out and complements it.

So, that's my prolix take on tubes vs. SS in Klipsch. There are many folks on the forum who are perfectly happy with their Scott integrateds, so that seems to be an excellent place to start and you may happy to stop there.

Larry

[Mallette]

Like I said, LOTS of advice.

Couple of comments...

I mentioned the ST-70 as "entry level." For many, it would be. I consider my Van Alstine rebuilt, NOSValves approved, ST-70i as all I will ever need. The only entry-level thing about it is that they are still pretty reasonably priced.

SET - Until I had the chance to try a couple of truly outstanding SET amps with my own sources material and system, I had seriously considered it. However, as a pipe organ lover and occasional listener to Dark Side of the Moon, they won't do. While utterly captivating on 95% of the literature they run out of steam (very politely...you only don't know it's not there if you are aware it is supposed to be...don't try that with SS) when called upon to reproduce deep, sustained bass.

Actually, with no limits on money I'd have a couple of SET's for the wonders they perform on the other 95%.

Dave

[colterphoto1]

Keep em coming- JT's description was something I experienced and Larry said this:

"Moreover, I believe that tubes have a more accurate
rendition of transients -- and, I think that only the outstanding
speaker transient response of horns really brings that out and
complements it. "

YES, that is IT. I really listen to the ATTACK of the notes, to my ear that is what differentiates instruments to a great degree and is what excites me in music. Not only the detail and accuracy with which the initial stages of notes are portrayed, but the way in which they bloom from the loudspeaker.

The pluck of a pick on a bass guitar string, the sound of stick on cymbal or drum head, the build up of pressure that causes the bite in a trumpet blast, those are the things I am listening for. Breathing, finger on fret noise, some might think these are recording artifacts that are left unreproduced, but when I can hear them on recordings where I previously could not, I know something has changed.

Another thing I noticed when listening to tubes was the way in which they go quiet during lulls in the proceedings. The Release of the note in Synth ADSR parlance. I don't know if there is some lag or blur in S/S presentation, but when the note was over on tubes, the soundstage fell dead silent in an almost eerie sort of way. Hearing that last rasp in David Clayton Thomas' voice, the way John Bonham's mighty drums hits died down was just amazing.

Keep em coming!

[HarryO]

Well said Dave. I've found the same results with the forementioned equipment.

Don't get me wrong, I love the sound of some SS gear. I'm sitting on a pair of nice Krell amps, a few Crowns, Adcom, a Sansui G-22000, KR-9600, just to name a couple. Some of you out there know and have seen my "collection". I just prefer the fuller and more lifelike sound of tubes. I don't wish to sound like a "TUBE NAZI" and hope beyond hope I haven't degraded the fine name of someones mother or unintentionally offended anyone by stating my PERSONAL likes. My limited education would surely find me at a disadvantage if it ever came down to name calling.

Hey, All I did was take a couple of low dollar tubers over to Michaels so he could listen for himself. He asked, I delivered to a friend. I tried to sell nothing, push nothing, nor force an opinion on him or anyone else. Enjoy the tunes all, in any form you prefer.

HarryO