Just in - Review of RSW-15, SVS Ultra & HGS 18

[TVodhanel]

don't bother trying to extrapolate accurately to TN's data.

it would take literally a half dozen of us...with calculators going constantly...working all night drinking rum-cokes to even have a chance...

....on second thought...

TV

[TVodhanel]

the watchdog looks like a decent unit...if it's <$2000 retail I would say it's got the potential to be a nice/flexible unit.

Maybe wilson will send Brian one for a possible part2?

TV

This message has been edited by TVodhanel on 12-18-2001 at 12:28 AM

[TheEAR]

TV,

Yes the WilsonAudio WATCH DOG is a great sub,as you know very well it is NOT in the 2 grand price range.It costs over 10 grand!

Why so much? Some may cry RIPOFF

Well no,those who do so are ignorants.

Wilson as you know builds unique cabinets free from vibrations and as solid as they get.To compare them to Klipsch would be like comparing a safe to a wooden crate. LOL

I can bet my whole sound system their cabinets are more inert and durable then ANY other spakers made.

To build such cabinets takes time and money,a lot of time and money.The result is coloration free(almost as no driver is coloration free 100%)sound and only the air noved by the cone(s) creates sound.Not the cabinet.

So yes the Wilson is very expensive,but when you consider the built quality and durability its not so overpriced.Too those with the green to buy one.

TheEAR(s) Now theears

[kleggatt]

I was quite surpised to see this review of the RSW 15 was not even close to where Klipsch said that it would be. I remember BobG said that it would be able to reach the output that 3 HGS-18s could do at 20hz. That didn't happen. Although the sub is a monster to 30hz it just isn't in the same league as the SVS Ultras. I am surprised that the RSW 15 compares to my PW-2200 though quite well! I have the version when TN measured it to 91db @ 20hz and I thinkt 109 db between 30 and 60! Just shy of the RSW! In fact I would say that it is not at all better than the PW-2200 a sub I paid 700 CDN for. I have to give it to Klipsch and Velodyne though, their two subs are the best looking of the bunch with the nod going to the Klipsch (I like the woofers). Well Tom and Ron at SVS are truely the kings of bass. Ear I think given the budget these two guys could outdo every sub on the market. You should free up some room and finances and just get a couple, or 4, Ultras! Screw the cubes! (not that they are not good but 4 Ultras would be cool)

I was really hoping that Klipsch would come through much better than that.

[boa12]

well I wish I hadn't seen this review 1st, but I steeped into the local klipsch dealer last pm & they finally had the klipsch room fully equipped w/ the rf-7, rc-7, rs-7 & yes the rsw-15.

trying to remove my bias from this review didn't help.

the rsw was excellent w/ music & the rf-7. tight bass & blended perfectly. but just didn't hit hard & clean on the low material like the hgs-18. & that's just 1 hgs-18

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My Home Systems Page

[htxpert]

Hi all
I am not sure about the break-in time of the
other subs,but the RSW series has a longer than normal
break-in time due to its stiff compliance woofer and
passive Radiator design.I dont know if this will or
could effect the acuall test but I thought it should be noted anyway.Very interesting results none the less

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I am HI-FI

[Colin]

What a great Christmas present by Brian Weatherhead!

Excellent comparison of the different frequency response and sound of various subs. Each one sounds so different. The charts really paint the differences. Great pictures and descriptions, great use of reference materials.

Most of them taper off near 100 Hz, so each one is what I would call a mid or deep bass woofer - they leave the upper-bass area, from 100 to about 200 or 250 Hz alone.

Only the Velodyne extends both deep (below 18 Hz.) and high (above 120 Hz.) The Velodyne HGS-18 classic is twice as loud from 56 Hz and up, plus it has higher output above 120 than all of the others, yet it extends down to 13 Hz. This makes the market leader well suited for both mid-bass and deep bass applications.

It is amazing how deep and loud the SVS CS-Ultra is below 50 Hz and how flat it is above that level. This unit should be the U-571 crowd pleaser. Surprisingly, the mighty Klipsch RSW15 is more of a mid-bass woofer with a peak at 104 Hz.

The flattest response among the selection is from about 30 to 104 Hz. (and therefore the reviewers most tepid remarks) is the Klipsch KSW15, which should make this little sub close to ideal for music reproductions.

The interesting shake value figure reflects output above 20 Hz, with every 10 dB above that frequency adding another shake value point. It's an easy gauge for how the sub will rock your boat. Using the shake value as the sole performance figure, the price performance ratio favors the Klipsch KSW15 by a long shot. For a list price of $749, and a street value much less than that, you get an awful lot of sub shaking for the money.

The next best deal is the SVS CS-Ultra, at three times the price and almost triple the shake value (and some deep bad *** bass). The Atlantic, RSW15 and then the Velodyne follow in price/performance. The versatile and powerful Velodyne is four times the price of the KSW15 with about 3 times the shake value. By far, the worse price/performance ratio is the Canton AS 300. For almost three times the price of the KSW15, you get about 1/2 the shake value!

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Colin's Music System Cornwall 1s & Klipsch subs; lights out & tubes glowing!

[brianw21]

Attached are the numerical results of the testing if anyone would like them.

I too was disappointed with the rsw. I tried several configurations (such as those in the instructions) and none elevated the lower octave.

I did have the rsw in one corner and SVS in another, played them at the same time... it was astounding.

AS far as breakin, I had the RSW for a month. Each woofer was hooked up for a week and used as I normally would, then tested. This also gave me time to play with different settings on the woofers before the testing.

Testing was done without a reciever, so the graphs reflect woofer and room response, with no external crossovers. It should be noted that most of the internal crossovers cannot be turned off.

-Brian

* Attached is the numerical results, in tab seperated.

[Guest BobG]

How much shown in the measurements is room and how much is sub?

[t-man]

TV, Brian, and others,

Forgive me in advance if my questions sound a little "green", but I'm a bit confused.

In the test, it stated, "Frequency sweeps were run from 10 Hz to 100 Hz. The volume was raised little by little until the sonic quality started to change." How does one measure change in sonic quality, or is this a subjective opinion? The article states further on, "All the reference scenes were listened to at "Reference Volumes."." What is reference volume here? How is the subs volume in comparison to the other speakers?

If measurements were taken at reference volumes, how does this relate to the sub's max output?

The critical question: Is max db output important no matter how loud you play your system, and no matter how big/small your room is? If I listen to movies and music at less than reference level, and in a cozy, small room, would I get better PERFORMANCE from two SVS Ultras as opposed to one? Or, do I have to really crank the volume in a large room to appreciate the benefit of an additional sub? More importantly, is there ANY benefit to having two subs in such a circumstance?

Thanks for your responses. This is a great thread so far!

T-man

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KG 5.5 (mains)

KG 2.2v (center)

KLF-C7 (center in storage)

KG 1 (rears)

KSW-12 (sub)

Denon AVR 681/1601

Toshiba SD-3109 DVD

Kenwood LVD700 LD

Sony CD changer

Sony 27" Trinitron

Sony PLX I

[h2xmark]

i really enjoyed the shootout on the subs, thanks Brian ,and for the question that Bacevedo had asked ,T.N. tested at 2 meters,the test brian did was at 12 feet ,so you would have to subtract about4 or 5 DB from t.n. spec's to match brian's spec's{correct me if i'm wrong guy's} so a spl1200 at 20hz 90db would be about 85db at the shootout ? what do you think T.V. sound about right? Ear, lets hear it ? what are your thoughts thanks mark

This message has been edited by h2xmark on 12-18-2001 at 09:31 PM

[TheEAR]

J Tanman,

Sorry I forgot to answer your question.

"I have a question for you since you have a vast array of subs. How would you compare the Revel B15 to the Aerial SW12 in SPLs and in quality/articulation of bass? Also, you would equate a single SVS Ultra to roughly the same performance as the Aerial SW12 correct? I'm trying to get an idea how these three subs would compare to each other. Oh, how is the B15 compared to the HGS 18? I only have had the opportunity to hear the HGS 18 and the B15."

Here it is,my view on all this(view supported by my trusty RatShack SPL meter and Golden EARS ).

First the REVEL B15 has more output overall then the AerialAcoustics SW12.The B15 is a better HT sub,alot like a HGS15 with more output,heck it can challenge a HGS18 above 25Hz with ease.

The Aerial is more like the awesome Wilson WATCH DOG sub,immaculate construction,finish to make all sub $5000 run and hide their ugly cheapo finishes.And built quality only bested by a few(Wilson is there)subs.The Aerial performs better on music,and still awesome on HT.Real deep bass(goes deeper then the B15!).

What is more?

The Aerial sounds more musical then the SVS Ultra.To say they sound alike is BS.The Aerial is more musical then the HGS series(easy,still the HGS18 is a superb 18" musical sub).To equal the bass quality of the Aerial in a SVS Ultra you must use a Bryston or another world class power amp,and cross the sub with care.

I dont care what some say BASS IS ALIKE...BS

The reviewer who did test the subs found(HEARD) this fact.Those who cant hear it should just buy a boomy one notey band pass piece O poop.

Most(take notice I said MOST)band pass subs are total trash for music and bastardise movies(explosions and drums sound alike HA).

So the Revel B15 is a class act with power under 3 grand US.The Aerial is in a very select class the no holds barred class,the oprice is also a la hauteur.Around 5-6 grand US if you want a gorgeous bird eye maple or rosewood! Ah rosewood looks so good.

Not a carpet covered oil barrel( TV)

Since I am on the subject of subs I cannot stop here,I just heard a B&W ASW4000! AH this is another slice of high-end sub woofing.

The ASW4000 uses the superb Nautilus 15" bass driver driven by a true 400W RMS power amp(you should see this 400W amp,makes the ZILLION watt class XY and Z amps look like Goofy candy).

The sound(or should I say the sub bass)? Tighta nd fast,its the fastest 15" sub I ever heard!Damn this unit slams and diggs low.Very musical with tremendous output.

Next year I have to have this beast.I must

So that is that

Hope I cleared some things

I forgot,the HGS18 will hit 16Hz quite easy,the B15 is more a solid 20Hz.And the HGS18 has more output down very low.I like both(duh I had to fork the change you know)

If the sub bass does not turn my internal organs into a goo I need higher SPL. Sub bass freak...YES I AM

TheEAR(s) Now theears

[TVodhanel]

>>>I dont care what some say BASS IS ALIKE...BS<<<

I don't remember anyone claiming all bass is alike. Could you do a search and pull a quote or two up ears?

>>>The reviewer who did test the subs found(HEARD) this fact.Those who cant hear it should just buy a boomy one notey band pass piece O poop.Most(take notice I said MOST)band pass subs are total trash for music and bastardise movies(explosions and drums sound alike HA).<<<

I think everyone realizes completely different response signatures will automatically cause each subwoofer to sound different...even the newest newbie seems to know this already. So I'm not sure what type of fact has just been proven in your opinion?

>>>So the Revel B15 is a class act with power under 3 grand US.The Aerial is in a very select class the no holds barred class,the oprice is also a la hauteur.Around 5-6 grand US if you want a gorgeous bird eye maple or rosewood! Ah rosewood looks so good.

Not a carpet covered oil barrel( TV)<<<

Different strokes I guess...at least there's plenty of good choices for every preference.

It sort of reminds me of the country club kids running around in their the new cars they got for graduating high school. They'd have a new mustage or a brand new vette or camaro, put some very nice chrome wheels on it..maybe some fancy paint...the occasional (fake)hoodscope...maybe chrome valve covers if they were the *serious* guys.

But there was something very real and very primal about rolling up beside them in a tubbed out,caged,blown rat on the gas.It wasn't even about their car stalling out because the 454 is using up all the oxygen for a 25ft radius....it was because I worked all summer carrying cement blocks to afford that blower No words were spoken...but when they managed a sheepish glance over at you...you could see it in their eyes...every time.

They were outgunned and they knew it...so they limp home and add a chrome air cleaner...and try to convince their friends it's all about the image anyway...

Brian, did you check with revel on their b15? If you want to do a *part2*...we'll be happy to resubmit our best <$3000 system.(no supercharger unfortunately...)

TV

[mike stehr]

Yeah Tom, I remember a buddy of mine

had this kinda beat-up black on black '69

Goat with 400 4-speed back in mid-eighties.

We'd pull up to all the poser rides and just

SPANK 'em.

But they knew they were outgunned when they

seen your ride, they didn't know what to think

with that beat-up GTO.

The only car he backed away from, was my other buddy

who had a '67 GTO 428 4 speed.

I remember in '90 these high school boys

were gonna do a burnout contest.

One had a '69 Camaro, the other a '69 Judge

4 speed.

The Camaro had a automatic, it'd burn a tire

all day long.

But I told the guy that the Judge won't do that,

unless you hold the brake, your just gonna

plant and go.

He didn't listen, and the tires spun around once

and he planted and went.

He wasn't to experienced a driver, obviously.

Seen a chick do the same thing with '67 vette

roadster 435 horse tri-power 427 back in '73

when I was a kid.

Ah, the muscle car memories, Sorry, this

grossly off topic!

THANX!

[TheEAR]

Quote galore and cars? Makes so much sense,TV a car is NOT a sub.Who cares if you smoked some goofs in cars daddy purchased for them with fake NITRO and TURBO stickers. LOL I see alot of ricers in my town too,the clowns who buy a Civic and buy a $1000 muffler with $5000 wheels and $10000 of INTIMIDATION STICKERS. I is just to damn funny.They think they will scare a BOSS Mustang or Stryker Viper. BA HA HA HA Clowns

Ok back to the subs...yet again

I dont know why you feel targeted and DEMAND ...QUOTES

LOL

Again the Aerial SW12 is for those who want a sub with high performance and that looks like a piece of fine furniture.Its not a coffin or barrel sub,sorry.

And built quality costs...alot.

And may I add the Aerial is built like few(to me and some that is also very important,nothing to do with country club BS).

I doubt Revel,Aerial and JBL(the Ti-K sub)were scared of the competition.Besides the Ultra and HGS18 the rest are not any ground breaking subs.And where is the B&W ASW4000?Many great contenders missing.

TheEAR(s) Now theears

[TVodhanel]

Ears,

Point was...

If you ain't got the horsepower...then some folks think adding fuzzy dice won't allow anyone to notice the 2" single exhaust pipe.

woof analogy?

instead of pouring money into that chrome name tag on the sub,maybe you could have gotten a much better horsepower/cost ratio by thinking of the driver,the structural integrity of the enclosure or the port flow/PR capabilities first?

TV

[TheEAR]

TV,

Point taken

I know SVS provides its owner with maximum output per dollar.Cant argue that.And great quality too.

To me audio is more then output alone,its sound quality and output while important come ssecond(well with all my gear one can question output as second LOL).

No worry,I want a pair or two of your SVS Ultras and SS.The SS should(I think will)be a sub with style and power(output)SVS is known for.

TheEAR(s) Now theears

[mike stehr]

You'd be suprised, those little Honda rides

get pretty fast, when the build up a V-tech

motor.

But the most gaudy looking things, with the junk

they stick on 'em, Japanese competition stickers,

clown exhaust tips, mega-dollar wheels, neon crap,

and airfoils.

Abosolutly no taste.

But like cars, subs can be sleepers or

a fancy peice of furniture.

Tom's are sleepers, nothing fancy to look at,

but they perform great, for the price.

Of course you will get the performance out of

a piece of fancy furniture sub, It's to be expected

for the price of the product.

THANX!

[brianw21]

The measurements were taken "in-room" at 12ft. The mic was placed on a tripod and faced towards the sub.

I acutally was taken aback at why the RSW didn't perform better. I talked to a few people who have the rsw, and they confimed my results. I moved that heavy RSW 10-15 times, to get what I got out of it. I was very pleased with the musical output of it, kick drums were crisp, and transients very clear. The rsw and HGS had very similar quality, but not below 30hz.

Testing procedure:

A mono output from a laptop running 10hz-100hz sweeps was plugged into the sub woofer. The gainw as set at 75% on the woofer. The volume was raised little by little until I could hear the sub start to give up. There is a clear point where the distortion becomes noticible. I backed it off a little bit to where the distortion was no longer noticible, then took the SPL measurements.

It should be noted that all the subs were driven to this point. If the test range was moved up say from 30hz-120hz instead of the 20hz many of the subs would have performed much better. Home theater has content well below 30hz and I felt this wouldn't be fair to the consumer. It's much harder for subs to play that lower ocate cleanly, and loud.

If I had to pick a purely musical sub, I would pick the RSW.

If I had to pick a musical sub that would sound great in hometheater I would pick the HGS.

If I had to pick a hometheater sub that would sound great musically I would pick the SVS.

I personally have a hometheater room upstairs that is dedicated for that. I also have a setup in the living room for music. I would put the SVS upstairs and the RSW downstairs.

I usually listen to my movies around 100db, I want a sub that will keep up with my KLF 30's. The svs did that, and did it clean.

Remeber that no matter how technical you are, every person hears and percieves sound differently. Listen to the subs, and make you decision.

Brian Weatherhead

Secrets of Home Theater

[Colin]

I think we are missing some important points here. Not only is there a big difference in the purchase price of the subs, but there is also a significant difference in the shape of their frequency responses. Although the RSW, CS-Ultra and HGS18 are all Brian's choices, each one sounds quite different.

It is no wonder the RSW sounds best for music with its punchy mid-bass peak. Although it reaches down at 30 Hz, it doesnt do it any where near as well as the CS tubes. (And who really cares what the CS tubes look like, when the lights are out, nobody sees them. If they rumble as deep as semi-truck, no will care what they look like.)

The sub-woofer leader Velodyne is $1195 more expensive than the Klipsch. And if you do not think that is important, let me tell you, Klipsch knows how important it is. This is 60% more than the RSW.

Just as important, the CS-Ultra is not only priced in the middle of these two, but it is the ONLY sub to significantly increase output below 56 Hz. This is the one we want for flat musical response. The CS is the only sub with both a relatively flat response above 50 Hz and an increase in output level below that. In other words, the CS is the only deep bass sub-woofer in the pack.

It is also the only sub in Brian's charts that can match the full range output of full-range, high efficiency horns. I am not sure how the differences in their amplifiers was equalized, but if you are listening to music at the 110 dB he shows on his chart, only the CS will have the increase in 29 Hz output that tells you a sub is on line. At normal listening levels, only the CS will have the 10 dB increase necessary to give you the idea that there is some low bass material present.

The best deep-bass sub-woofer in this pack to match with Cornwalls and other big old horns? The SVS CS-Ultra.

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Colin's Music System Cornwall 1s & Klipsch subs; lights out & tubes glowing!