Folded Horn Tubby - Woody Sound ?

[ka7niq]

You guys must hear it, don't you ?

It can really color up low end of some voices, and almost sounds like a thud on some bass lines

All three pairs of Khorns I owned had it, and so did the Belles.

The SpeakerLab SK's have it too, and it drives me nuts.

What is it, where is it coming from, and IS it possible to get rid of it w/o EQ ?

[Daddy Dee]

I don't think I've noticed it as you describe it.

The horn loaded bass does sound different than a direct radiator, of course. IMO, it is less distorted and loads the room better.

[ka7niq]

I can really hear it on recording of "Ballad of the Green Berets".

When he sings "Fighting Soldiers from the sky"

It is not Barry Sadler, but another guy with an even deeper voice

The F in fighting and the o in soldiers are emphasised, it sounds tubby.

It is not just these SpeakerLab SK's that do this, the last pair of Khorns did it too.

This coloration is not there on other speakers.

[DrWho]

The Khorn has a midbass hump around 250Hz which I think is mostly responsible for the tubbiness that shows up every now and then. I believe it is the AK-4 crossover that implements some EQ to get rid of it. It's certainly worth a try, but you'll want to make sure you match the Q and magnitude with your filter so that you can correct the phase too.

[soundbound]

Yes. I hear it from my Klipschorns and it bothers me too. I've read La scala and Belle owners complain of this woody sound too. Is it possible that the wood horn itself is causing it? There's a lot of wood in these speakers and it's being resonated. They're folded horns too causing those sound waves to hit that wood hard and change directions. Woody and boxy are two words I've used to describe it.

[PrestonTom]

Perhaps there is more than a single problem here.

Some, but not all, of the comments could indicate an unfavorable interaction between the speaker and the room. What comes to mind in particular is an excessive ringing at the low frequencies. This can certainly cause a muddy sound. This can sometimes result from a poor amplifier choice, especially if you are playing at loud levels.

Good Luck,

-Tom

[freddyi]

my K-horns "thud" on acoustic guitar and harpsichord plucked notes so aren't being used old caps???) - theres quite a transition from the folded horn to K400 then to tweeter - we could try a parametric eq IIRC La Scala without bracing the mouth would have modulation effects vs say a PV FH1. (cutoff is higher in LS type than K-horn leaving opportunity for hollow sound) My Karlson 12 with c12cx although problematic sounded better than K-horn on Garry Karr's bass. Speakers are closer to musical instruments than some want to admit.

FWIW heres two in-room measurements of K-horn with CTS K33E vs a Sentry IV loaded with moderate EBP Pyle/Eminence pym1298

[oscarsear]

First off someone posted a very interesting article showing that there are about 3 distinct hearing preferences for humans.  Secondly I've owned old Khorns and new Khorns.  In the New Khorns I had the AK4 crossover and I now use Klappenburgers steep slope crossover.

I had 86 Khorns and found them very much to my liking.  Did not notice any tubbiness per se.  Then I let them go away.  I got new Khorns with the AK4 and they were way too bright for me.  The bass was gone as far as I was concerned.  I replaced them with Al crossovers and the bass returned in spades.  On some songs they do sound very tubby to me.  But for the most part they do not.  It is very dependent on the caliber of the recording.  I would also venture that the Ballad of the Green Beret is not one of the higher end reproductions 

But, back to my 1st point.  There is a group of people who find bass heavy music very unpleasant.  There is a group of people who find music shallow in bass very tinny and unpleasant.  Neither is abnormal.  They are natural hearing preferences.  I lean toward the bass end.  The AK4 was not at all acceptable to my tastes.  Perhaps you are on the other end of this spectrum and would find the AK4 ideal as many do.  People seem to like the AK4 a lot or dislike it it a lot.  Obviously the success of the folded horn design demonstrates its ability to accurately reproduce sound.  They are used in many horn designs not just Klipsch products.  I have always found direct radiating bass speakers tubby and inaccurate.  For the money I think the Khorn is the best one can achieve.  I do think they should offer it with a choice of crossovers.

[ka7niq]

The KHorns did it, and so do their clones, the SpeakerLa SK's.

No speaker is perfect, but it bugs me sometimes.

It made me so mad I unhooked em, went back to some cones and domes.

Miss the big horns already, gonna hook em back up.

Unlike the KHorns, the SpeakerLab SK's are not really amp critical.

Maybe one of my receivers can work with them ?

I have a big JVC RX DP 9 with built in 3 band digital parametric eq, and a Pioneer with remote control bass and treble controls.

Actually, the extra warmth of the folded horns is sometimes a good thing.

It is just like you said Freddy, sometimes it thuds.

Maybe just backing off the bass control on certain recordings will make it more tolerable ?

I just love the power and majesty of the big horns, and how the whole room comes alive with sound.

Someone mentioned measuring equipment, that would be nice to have!

[ZAKO]

I found this effect when damping factor of amp is too low...Also if damping is too high speakers bass is to dry of too tight... At one time this BOING BOING effect was bugging me changing amps did the trick. It can be problematic and at times its just in the recording.....Mic placement not properly done. I dont know why some engineers stick the mic up the bass drum like that...They should stick it else where.

[ka7niq]

First off someone posted a very interesting article showing that there are about 3 distinct hearing preferences for humans. Secondly I've owned old Khorns and new Khorns. In the New Khorns I had the AK4 crossover and I now use Klappenburgers steep slope crossover.

I had 86 Khorns and found them very much to my liking. Did not notice any tubbiness per se. Then I let them go away. I got new Khorns with the AK4 and they were way too bright for me. The bass was gone as far as I was concerned. I replaced them with Al crossovers and the bass returned in spades. On some songs they do sound very tubby to me. But for the most part they do not. It is very dependent on the caliber of the recording. I would also venture that the Ballad of the Green Beret is not one of the higher end reproductions

But, back to my 1st point. There is a group of people who find bass heavy music very unpleasant. There is a group of people who find music shallow in bass very tinny and unpleasant. Neither is abnormal. They are natural hearing preferences. I lean toward the bass end. The AK4 was not at all acceptable to my tastes. Perhaps you are on the other end of this spectrum and would find the AK4 ideal as many do. People seem to like the AK4 a lot or dislike it it a lot. Obviously the success of the folded horn design demonstrates its ability to accurately reproduce sound. They are used in many horn designs not just Klipsch products. I have always found direct radiating bass speakers tubby and inaccurate. For the money I think the Khorn is the best one can achieve. I do think they should offer it with a choice of crossovers.

I would like to see that article.

I have noticed this myself, in an unscientific sort of way.

Not all hear alike, that is for sure.

Personally, I hate a thin, bright sound.

But some are detail freaks.

I am gonna put the horns back in the system, and try one of my recievers I guess ?

coukld you post a link to that article ?

[freddyi]

I had one 1970's K-horn bin and kludged it with a Speakerlab midhorn, University driver and a piezo/stepup xformer - I think it sounded a bit better overall than my real 100% lumbercore K-horn - maybe partly due to no grille cloth (?) around 1990 I ran K-horn with Edgarhorn 250hz/LE5 tractrix, K33E/K43 clone or 2220H JBL with Audax PR130 ring radiator stepped back to the midhorn's plane.

looking around on these excellent forums I came across Speakerlab K xover - they used only 1.3mH choke for 4 ohm woofer - I'm not sure how their CTS woofers differed in voice-coil inductance from K33E (?) I remember it fondly 41 years ago as they were my 1st horn system and fun at the time with fresh Dynaco MKIII and modified PAS - the

house at the time had good walls too - not so now :^( -- -I'm %95 sure that my "thud" problem on harpsichord is due to weak ringing/resonant walls (3/4" sheefrock over 3/4" plywood on modern 2"x6" studs with vinyl) is there a narrow concrete block of another way to savalge the horrible room?

Speakerlab xover - - why might it be "less amp sensitive"? - theres a 15ohm shunt R across the Atlas mid driver

http://forums.klipsch.com/forums/storage/6/658128/SLXover.jpg

btw a lowpass filter for K-horn which pulls up response from dropping input Z would not work with amplifiers such as SET with no loop nfb

[ka7niq]

I had one 1970's K-horn bin and kludged it with a Speakerlab midhorn, University driver and a piezo/stepup xformer - I think it sounded a bit better overall than my real 100% lumbercore K-horn - maybe partly due to no grille cloth (?) around 1990 I ran K-horn with Edgarhorn 250hz/LE5 tractrix, K33E/K43 clone or 2220H JBL with Audax PR130 ring radiator stepped back to the midhorn's plane.

looking around on these excellent forums I came across Speakerlab K xover - they used only 1.3mH choke for 4 ohm woofer - I'm not sure how their CTS woofers differed in voice-coil inductance from K33E (?) I remember it fondly 41 years ago as they were my 1st horn system and fun at the time with fresh Dynaco MKIII and modified PAS - th ehouse at the time had good walls too - not so now :^(

Speakerlab xover - - why might it be "less amp sensitive"? - theres a 15ohm shunt R across the Atlas mid driver

http://forums.klipsch.com/forums/storage/6/658128/SLXover.jpg

btw a lowpass filter for K-horn which pulls up response from dropping input Z would not work with amplifiers such as SET with no loop nfb

What is that shunt resistor doing Freddy ?

I have the woofers running connected right to the speaker wires right now.

I have tried the crossover too, the woofer sees to sound better running out with no roll off.

It makes the coloration and thud less noticeable, at the expense of a more overall colored midrange.

With the woofer running all the way out, at least the coloration is consistent.

Think maybe a bigger inductor is in order ?

[ka7niq]

I found this effect when damping factor of amp is too low...Also if damping is too high speakers bass is to dry of too tight... At one time this BOING BOING effect was bugging me changing amps did the trick. It can be problematic and at times its just in the recording.....Mic placement not properly done. I dont know why some engineers stick the mic up the bass drum like that...They should stick it else where.

Tried two amps, does it on both

[oscarsear]

The thread was posted by Maxg and it is entitled "I can't hear what you hear".  I'll try and post a direct link to the article.

http://aca.gr/paper.htm  

[freddyi]

re:15ohm across the Atlas = flattens the input impedance which can be good for reducing interaction with odd order passive xover and horn driver varying input impedance plus it matched Speakerlab's choice of 8 ohm L-pad - if you can measure the woofer's inductance (or find that info in these forums( you might experiment with a Zoebel and lowpass to hear if you can get any more effective range and avoid passing some of the upper mids into the basshorn. Where are the best posts on these forums for wrestling with K-horn lowpass? - these are low EBP woofer.

[ka7niq]

re:15ohm across the Atlas = flattens the input impedance which can be good for reducing interaction with odd order passive xover and horn driver varying input impedance plus it matched Speakerlab's choice of 8 ohm L-pad - if you can measure the woofer's inductance (or find that info in these forums( you might experiment with a Zoebel and lowpass to hear if you can get any more effective range and avoid passing some of the upper mids into the basshorn. Where are the best posts on these forums for wrestling with K-horn lowpass? - these are low EBP woofer.

I have a Rane 24 db electronic crossover I could try on the woofers, or on the mids too.

Where would you set the crossover Freddy ?

[ka7niq]

re:15ohm across the Atlas = flattens the input impedance which can be good for reducing interaction with odd order passive xover and horn driver varying input impedance plus it matched Speakerlab's choice of 8 ohm L-pad - if you can measure the woofer's inductance (or find that info in these forums( you might experiment with a Zoebel and lowpass to hear if you can get any more effective range and avoid passing some of the upper mids into the basshorn. Where are the best posts on these forums for wrestling with K-horn lowpass? - these are low EBP woofer.

Running the woofer w/o any inductor, do you want it in or out of phase with mids ?

[garymd]

I know exactly what you're describing. Mine went away with quality components and upgraded networks. In particular, stock networks, new or rebuilt to spec will give you that sound. Dean's ALK Jrs helped get rid mine along with VRDs, a BBX with quality tubes and a nice TT.

For curiosity sake, I tried a pair of Bob Crites new A/AA networks and that tubby wood sound came right back.

[ka7niq]

I know exactly what you're describing. Mine went away with quality components and upgraded networks. In particular, stock networks, new or rebuilt to spec will give you that sound. Dean's ALK Jrs helped get rid mine along with VRDs, a BBX with quality tubes and a nice TT.

For curiosity sake, I tried a pair of Bob Crites new A/AA networks and that tubby wood sound came right back.

Yes, it is a very real thing, and once you have heard it, you will know.

BTW, what does VRD and BBX stand for ?