fini Posted November 3, 2007 Share Posted November 3, 2007 Nope. http://www.howstuffworks.com/question105.htm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wpines Posted November 4, 2007 Share Posted November 4, 2007 Chris, I've owned an HVAC contracting, service and maintenance company for 35 years and would be happy to consult with you. Each fuel has distinct benefits to match your lifestyle and your wallet. The fuel type, combustion efficiency, fuel cost, age of the oil tank and associated liability, the heat loss/load of the structure, and some other variables are all factors in a lifecycle cost analyses. There are a number of other factors to consider such as; do you own the property, when will you be selling this property, will you ever own but rent out this property, will you be making any changes to the structure within the lifecycle of the new unit, etc. I'll PM you my cell phone number and you're welcome to call me on Sunday. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gaspr Posted November 4, 2007 Share Posted November 4, 2007 Yes, glad to see an expert chime in. I am assuming that because you are on this thread, that you are a music lover. One thing that often gets overlooked when considering new heating systems is knowing how noisy they will be. Newer furnaces get a lot of their efficiency from blowing more air through the heat exchanger. This can result in a lot more noise throughout your existing ducting than what you were used to. Just another question that should be asked... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mungkiman Posted November 4, 2007 Author Share Posted November 4, 2007 Got your PM. Thanks for the offer of advice. I hope I can take you up on it tomorrow, when I hope to have competing price proposals. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colterphoto1 Posted November 5, 2007 Share Posted November 5, 2007 You can't cook properly on electric range. I'm a big believer of the comfort of hydronic heat if you're building a new system. Having scorched air blown at you is not a comfortable way to heat your home, I don't care by what method it's scorched. But Hurd is right, these fees for gas utilities when you aren't using any products is robbery. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mungkiman Posted November 8, 2007 Author Share Posted November 8, 2007 For a variety of reasons, I opted for a Trane XV95, two-stage, 95% efficient, 80,000 BTU, 3 ton drive gas furnace. I also went with a Honeywell F100 4" pleated media filter, and a Honeywell 2 stage, touch screen, Vision Pro thermostat. The furnace itself qualifies for $750 in Federal and State tax credits, and a State Energy Trust rebate. I installed a new dedicated circuit for the furnace, with a switched disconnect, and an outlet for the condensation pump. I opted to vent through a chimney (2-pipe), rather than sidewall (concentric) for my sense of aesthetics, rather than ease on the part of the contractor. The gas piping is one inch, which I'm told is large enough for a gas range and clothes dryer. Tees have been provided for both. If I eventually add a hot water heater to the mix, I would probably go tankless and vent sidewall, or get an exterior mounted model. I might need a new meter at that point. Almost everything went like clockwork, down to the mechanical, electrical, and piping inspections this afternoon, but the gas company's sub-contractor put the meter in the wrong place! I had sketched a plan of the house, where I wanted the meter, and had the gas company come out to approve and "tag" the location of the riser and meter. Their sub-contractor disregarded the work order, and placed it in a spot that would require exterior piping on the house, and additional cost to me. I knew that if the inspector saw the pipe stubbed out 25' from where the meter was, he would interpret that the house piping was incomplete. I recognized this conflict yesterday, and contacted the same rep that tagged the house, and he drafted a letter to satisfy the inspection, stating that the meter would be moved to the tagged location. While that got me through the inspection, I have no commitment as to when the meter will move. Worse comes to worst, my furnace contractor will run a temporary line from the meter to the house piping, but I don't want to pay for it. Thanks to everyone who contributed their opinion, and to Brad for offering his help. Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michael hurd Posted November 8, 2007 Share Posted November 8, 2007 Glad everything went well with the install ( well almost everything ) and that they provided provisions for dryer and range without having to break into ( cut ) piping and rethread in the future. Tankless is the wave of the future for hot water heat.... seldom home, with little hot water use = smaller bills with no pilot, and no tank to keep warm. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mungkiman Posted November 8, 2007 Author Share Posted November 8, 2007 Thanks, Michael. I still have a few things to deal with in addition to the meter issue, but the "no-heat" situation will be resolved tomorrow. I have to get rid of the remaining oil in the tank (maybe 150 gallons), and eventually remove the tank itself. I also have a "new" Primary Control unit from the company that maintained the old oil furnace and filled the oil tank, with only 2 days on it. That was installed ($411) immediately prior to them telling me that I needed a new furnace. I also renewed my service contract with them for $125/year, after they installed the PC unit, but before they told me about the furnace. Since I switched to natural gas, they likely won't be much interested in giving my money back, but at least I talked with their service manager about the PC unit (pro-rated) refund prior to my fuel decision. Since this was the first time that the city had been inside the house after I purchased it, they got a chance to look around. The inspector wrote in his report, which will be filed and recorded, that I need to take out a permit for my new breaker panel, and have it inspected. Apparently, the sweet little old lady that sold me the house had some work done without permits. [:$] One of the primary reasons for switching to gas was also for gas cooking on a new range. I guess I never thought about an oil furnace, with a gas system for hot H2O, cooking food, and drying clothes, but it's a done deal now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fini Posted November 9, 2007 Share Posted November 9, 2007 I have to get rid of the remaining oil in the tank (maybe 150 gallons), and eventually remove the tank itself. Keep the oil as a diversified investment! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mungkiman Posted November 9, 2007 Author Share Posted November 9, 2007 Black Gold! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duke Spinner Posted November 10, 2007 Share Posted November 10, 2007 Glad everything went well with the install ( well almost everything ) and that they provided provisions for dryer and range without having to break into ( cut ) piping and rethread in the future. Tankless is the wave of the future for hot water heat.... seldom home, with little hot water use = smaller bills with no pilot, and no tank to keep warm. nooooo ..... tankless = the future of never ending repairs ....[] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LarryC Posted November 10, 2007 Share Posted November 10, 2007 Can tankless systems operate if the power is out? I have a gas WH (w/pilot light), and have liked having hot water when power is out and nothing else is working including the furnace for any length of time. Gas for the water heater is a small part of my total annual energy bill. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duke Spinner Posted November 10, 2007 Share Posted November 10, 2007 tankless needs a Pump ... or ... no more tankless heater ..[] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Travis In Austin Posted November 11, 2007 Moderators Share Posted November 11, 2007 I run a loop from my house to under ground lines and a deep lake,,,Heat pump has lowered my bill quite alot.. Why do you need a water source for a heat pump? Is that a northeren U.S. thing? We have heat pumps all over the southwest (It is simply an air conditioner run in reverse with aux. heat source when the temp gets too cold), and none of them are on a loop connected to water. Heat pumps work great down to about 40 degrees, so that is why they are popular in the south. They are efficient as gas. As far as oil vs. gas, it is just a matter of comparing the ratings of one vs. the other. Here is something I found right quick at Consumersearch.com. Look at the last paragraph about a tax credit that is available. 80% or high efficiency? The EPA requires furnaces to have at least a 78% AFUE (annual fuel-utilization rating). This means that a minimum of 78% of the fuel consumed is directly converted to heat your home. The rest escapes through the flue, literally up the chimney. Currently, the most efficient furnaces you can buy have a 97% AFUE. If your furnace is more than 15 years old, it probably has an AFUE of only 65%, so it's easy to see how improvements in energy conservation can have a direct impact on your fuel bill. Keep in mind that these energy efficiency ratings do not take ducting into account. According to the Department of Energy and to other energy experts, anywhere from 20% to 40% of heating energy ends up leaking through ductwork. Expert posters to the HVAC-Talk forum acknowledge the importance of the AFUE rating in determining fuel consumption, but stress that contractor experience and warranty length are equally important. A high AFUE rating does not promise quality or satisfaction with the product after the furnace is installed. James Dulley's latest report highlights the advantages of the new super-efficient condensing gas furnaces which range from 92% to 96% AFUE. Dulley highlights four two-stage units, including the Trane XV 90 (AFUE 93%), Bryant Plus 90i (AFUE 96.6%) and the Rheem modulating furnace (AFUE 92%). According to Dulley, the additional cost for these furnaces is offset by the decrease in heating bills which, when multiplied by the expected life of the furnace, can be a substantial savings. Units with over a 90% efficiency rating make the most sense for those who live in areas with severe winters and high fuel prices. That's because these models can cost $1,000 more than 80% gas furnaces, and higher usage in cold climates means you'll be able to make the investment pay off in the long run with decreased fuel bills. The other big reason to consider a 90% furnace is to cut down on wasted energy and help decrease the production of greenhouse gases. To help recoup the cost of buying a more efficient 90% furnace, you'll get a tax break from the federal government. Until December 31, 2007, taxpayers who purchase a replacement gas or oil furnace or boiler with an AFUE rating of 95% or higher can claim a $150 tax credit. An additional $50 can be claimed by those who buy a replacement gas or oil furnace with an "advanced main air circulating fan," with an estimated electricity consumption of the motor being no more than 2% of the total estimated energy use of the furnace. Other tax breaks are available for those who purchase efficient gas or oil water heaters and other efficient HVAC equipment. See our Best Research section below for more information. Though a tax break is nice, most experts say there's not a huge performance gain from a 90% furnace to a 95% furnace, so you may be better off going with a less costly 90% model. http://www.consumersearch.com/www/house_and_home/furnaces/review.html Travis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Travis In Austin Posted November 11, 2007 Moderators Share Posted November 11, 2007 Mung, Looks like you went with a great choice. You cannot go wrong with Trane, I have never had a problem with a Trane product. I didn't realize you had already made you decision when I posted above, I'm glad you got the info on the tax credits. Travis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mungkiman Posted November 11, 2007 Author Share Posted November 11, 2007 I can't imagine what the efficiency of a late '50's oil furnace would be. 40% - 60% ? The variable speed fan is nice, rather than the old on/off no limit fan. The heat seems to be much more even, and a lot less noisy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michael hurd Posted November 12, 2007 Share Posted November 12, 2007 Europe uses mostly all tankless hot water heaters. The heat will seem more even as the fan and furnace run more often, with a tighter spread ( Tdelta ) between cut in and cut out points. Newer furnaces have thinner heat exchangers which do not take as much time to transfer heat effectively. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mighty Favog Posted November 12, 2007 Share Posted November 12, 2007 We had an oil furnace put in about 5 years ago. The original oil furnace (first one in the house since it was built in the early 50's) started to smell like deisel exhaust when it cycled on. No real complaints about it. Costs aren't that bad and we also burn a fire place insert. We keep the temps at around 62 deg., burn about 400 gal. a year and also burn a little over a chord of wood that some way or another is given to us. Cash outlay per winter? ~$500 + the yearly tuneup. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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