Klipsch Epic CF 3 Version 1 In Da House

[khornbred]

ok, heres the changes in crossover component values frm V1 to V2. i have a pair of each. i opened up the crossovers today to get this info. note that these crossovers are mounted on two stacked pc boards, with the autoformer screwed to the plastic terminal plate, so i could not easily determine the actual schematic, or ID of each component without desoldering. so i can only provide a description that someone with one of these crossovers in front of them could understand enough to swap components. these are CF-3s. not all components are included.

first v1

on the low pass board the capacitor furthest from the speaker wire connections is 25uf

on the high pass board, the cap on the bottom side of the board is a 1.1uf

there are 3 caps ina row near the autoformer, the middle one is 4.0uf, the one nearest the resistors is 3.25uf

the resistors starting nearest the autoformer are 10w2ohm,10w2ohm,10w8ohm,10w1ohm.

next v2

on the low pass board the capacitor furthest from the speaker wire connections is 40uf

on the high pass board, the cap on the bottom side of the board is a 1.5uf

there are 3 caps ina row near the autoformer, the middle one is 4.3uf, the one nearest the resistors is 3.5uf

the resistors starting nearest the autoformer are 10w4ohm,10w1ohm,10w8ohm,10w1ohm.

so in all, 4 cap and 2 resistor changes. all the inductors look the same and there are a couple of caps that are encased in heat shrink tubing so i can't id them at this time.

next i'll have to do some a/b testing to determine the difference in sound. i've been using the v2 as my main stereo speakers. i recently found the second pair, v1s that i am using one as a center channel. all have 5" ports right now. when i bought the v2s which were floor models, one had short ports, one long. i had noticed a difference in bass response for years before i noticed the difference in port length! i assume the store swapped port tubes for a customer. yes, the horns are a bit hot with the long tubes.

anybody else want to pull their networks to log the values and compare?

[ka7niq]

ok, heres the changes in crossover component values frm V1 to V2. i have a pair of each. i opened up the crossovers today to get this info. note that these crossovers are mounted on two stacked pc boards, with the autoformer screwed to the plastic terminal plate, so i could not easily determine the actual schematic, or ID of each component without desoldering. so i can only provide a description that someone with one of these crossovers in front of them could understand enough to swap components. these are CF-3s. not all components are included.

first v1

on the low pass board the capacitor furthest from the speaker wire connections is 25uf

on the high pass board, the cap on the bottom side of the board is a 1.1uf

there are 3 caps ina row near the autoformer, the middle one is 4.0uf, the one nearest the resistors is 3.25uf

the resistors starting nearest the autoformer are 10w2ohm,10w2ohm,10w8ohm,10w1ohm.

next v2

on the low pass board the capacitor furthest from the speaker wire connections is 40uf

on the high pass board, the cap on the bottom side of the board is a 1.5uf

there are 3 caps ina row near the autoformer, the middle one is 4.3uf, the one nearest the resistors is 3.5uf

the resistors starting nearest the autoformer are 10w4ohm,10w1ohm,10w8ohm,10w1ohm.

so in all, 4 cap and 2 resistor changes. all the inductors look the same and there are a couple of caps that are encased in heat shrink tubing so i can't id them at this time.

next i'll have to do some a/b testing to determine the difference in sound. i've been using the v2 as my main stereo speakers. i recently found the second pair, v1s that i am using one as a center channel. all have 5" ports right now. when i bought the v2s which were floor models, one had short ports, one long. i had noticed a difference in bass response for years before i noticed the difference in port length! i assume the store swapped port tubes for a customer. yes, the horns are a bit hot with the long tubes.

anybody else want to pull their networks to log the values and compare?

Great Work Khornbred !!!!!!!!

Even Roy Delgado did not recall, nor could he find notes to give me regarding the crossover change.

[jarrod2750]

I'm having a hard time with serial numbers for epic cf 3's. Does this set of two serial numbers mean they are version #1's from 1994?

S/N 370490475 and S/N 370490476

[ka7niq]

I'm having a hard time with serial numbers for epic cf 3's. Does this set of two serial numbers mean they are version #1's from 1994?

S/N 370490475 and S/N 370490476

Yes, it would appear so! But call Klipsch to be sure!

[kapsnb01]

I'm not an expert, but seems to me you have a pair where the serial numbers do not follow the usual format, which does happen. In this case, I'd check the port tubes. Are they 5" long or 2.5"? If they are the 5" tubes, it's likely a version 1 (unless someone swapped the tubes at some point). If they are 2.5" tubes, the best way to tell between version 2 & 3 (in my view) is to check the network wires. If colored then they are version 3, if a clear jacket then version 2.

Hope that helps...

[kapsnb01]

Also remember that Klipsch moved to Version 2s in the fall of 1994, so even if the 4 in your serial numbers still means 1994, they could very easily be verison 2s...

[ka7niq]

My Lord, this old thread just refuses to Die! I am glad too! I remember when I got my first CF series spekers, and in my excitement, started this thread.

I STUPIDLY sold my CF 4 version 1's, but one day, I will find another pair.

Tell me, are any of you biamping the CF 3 or CF 4 speakers, like I suggested ? They really sound best IMHO, that way.

If anyone is looking for a good sounding cheap speaker of high efficiency that will knock down the walls, and sounds very audiophile like, let me suggest The Cerwin Vega VS 150, until you can get your hands on a CF 3 or CF 4.

I know, I know, Cerwin Vega sucks, right " Yes, most of them do, but not their old flagship, the Cerwin Vega VS 150

It is a warm, rich, musical sounding speaker of great bass power, and high efficiency. It will "hold you over" until you can get your hot little hands on a CF 4 or CF 3.

I just threw this in the thread, because I have got several emails asking me to suggest a speaker that is readily available used, until someone can find a CF 3 or CF 4.

LOL, I think, because of this thread, I have "driven up the price" of the CF Series speakers ?

It is not easy to find a CF 3 or especially a CF 4 version 1 anymore and you must pay all the money.

Cerwin Vega VS 150's can be found under 300.00 all day long.

I also like ORIGINAL Klipsch Forte's! For a small speaker, they will rock your world, and can shake a room with deep bass.

They are a little bright, not hard, just very vivid and detailed. Best to use a tube amp with these.

But one of my very favorite speakers, besides Electro Voice Interface D's that you will never find, are Version 1 Klipsch CF 4's passively biamped.

[kapsnb01]

My Lord, this old thread just refuses to Die! I am glad too! .

I did chuckle a little as I was writing my first response for the very same reason. Funny thing is, this thread really does have alot more information than calling Klipsch right now will provide (at least in my experience). They really don't have a lot of information on the Epics anymore. So, I can see for someone, like me, that just bought a 3 or 4 how valuable reading this thread would be.

I think, because of this thread, I have "driven up the price" of the CF Series speakers ? It is not easy to find a CF 3 or especially a CF 4 version 1 anymore and you must pay all the money.

They really don't pop up on the market very often...at least that I've seen.

I've got mine apart right now with the networks off for a rebuild and the boxes ready for some bracing and dampening work. Looking forward to getting everything back and put together again.

[cubdog]

My CF3 version 1s just got demoted. Sad I, know, and I do love them. I also have two pair of version 2s. For the time being I will do some cabinet refinishing and decide if future upgrades are warranted. I have biamped them using my Bel Canto Mono Blocks and a Parasound amp as suggested. So, what has dethroned my Epic speakers? Believe it or not a pair of Sony speakers. SS-M7s to be exact. Eventually the Sony's may move to another system and the CF3s will move back to my main system but I'm not sure yet how this will all shake out.

cubdog

[ka7niq]

My Lord, this old thread just refuses to Die! I am glad too! .

I did chuckle a little as I was writing my first response for the very same reason. Funny thing is, this thread really does have alot more information than calling Klipsch right now will provide (at least in my experience). They really don't have a lot of information on the Epics anymore. So, I can see for someone, like me, that just bought a 3 or 4 how valuable reading this thread would be.

I think, because of this thread, I have "driven up the price" of the CF Series speakers ? It is not easy to find a CF 3 or especially a CF 4 version 1 anymore and you must pay all the money.

They really don't pop up on the market very often...at least that I've seen.

I've got mine apart right now with the networks off for a rebuild and the boxes ready for some bracing and dampening work. Looking forward to getting everything back and put together again.

What are u having done to the crossovers, and who is doing it ?

[ka7niq]

My CF3 version 1s just got demoted. Sad I, know, and I do love them. I also have two pair of version 2s. For the time being I will do some cabinet refinishing and decide if future upgrades are warranted. I have biamped them using my Bel Canto Mono Blocks and a Parasound amp as suggested. So, what has dethroned my Epic speakers? Believe it or not a pair of Sony speakers. SS-M7s to be exact. Eventually the Sony's may move to another system and the CF3s will move back to my main system but I'm not sure yet how this will all shake out.

cubdog

I have many many pairs of speakers, cause I get bored I guess ? I find no one pair of speakers ever completely satisfies me, for long.

[kapsnb01]

What are u having done to the crossovers, and who is doing it ?

Having Bob Crites replace the caps and such. Nothing major... Gives me some time to do some bracing of the cabinets and some better dampening in them also.

[ka7niq]

What are u having done to the crossovers, and who is doing it ?

Having Bob Crites replace the caps and such. Nothing major... Gives me some time to do some bracing of the cabinets and some better dampening in them also.

Bracing and damping material takes up space inside of the box and can change the box tuning, be careful!

[moray james]

so please don't take this personally but I am so tired of hearing this it is not true. Most cabinet designs are cool with 10% variations in volume and that is a LOT of brace work. Damping make the speaker think it is in a larger volume not a smaller volume that is unless you are stuffing a cabinet with material which does squat to begin with. Proper brace work and quality damp help matters they don't make it worse. Best regards Moray James.

[ka7niq]

I just meant, don't get "crazy" with the bracing and damping.

One of the very best sounding CF 4 Version 2's I ever heard had some round wood dowel braces added right behind each woofer. He used some sort of outwardly expanding screw mechanism installed on the round wood dowels he said. Sort of like a shower curtain is adjusted to stay up. The wood dowels installed behind the woofers, besides being a brace, also acted as diffusers for the woofers he said!

As you know, in the CF 3 and CF 4, the woofers are also midranges. They play well up into the midrange.

Diffusion of the back wave of a midrange driver is a well known means to lower coloration, especially if used with good damping material.

Whatever......, it sure sounded very nice!

[moray james]

with a retro brace job you are always more restricted than with a new build and you are generally working through driver cut outs. Hereis what I consider a minimum retro brace job for a cabinet suuch as the CF3/4. Baltic Birch ply or solid hard wood such as Oak Birch or Maple for the braces which will be 3/4"x2.5". The reason for these material choices is that you do want to keep your brace volume down and the stiffer the material that you uses the less you need to achieve your goal. The sides will have one vertical brace 3/4"x2.5" on edge vertically up the middle of the panel. The back baffle should have two of these one vertically on either side of the treminal cup. The top will have one brace from front to back. The front baffle should have a horizontal brace above and below each woofer. You can add additional braces and 45 degree wedges to insure the baffle is very rigid around each woofer. I generally leave the bottom of the cabinet open as many end up adding more serious after market crossovers and you will need a space to mount them and the bottom is a good place. Each brace should be fixed to its adajacent panel brace with at least two or three 1"x2" (actual dimension is 3/4"x1.5") stringes which can be made of pine or spruce (solid) the stringers tie the parts together so that the panels cannot expand or compress , in other words the panels can't bulge in any direction. Place stringers side to sideand front to back and dont forget the top and again leave the bottom open for future use. Where possibel contrive to have the stringers bond to one another where possibem and you will end up with a very well braced and stiffed cabinet with the absolute minimum quantity of material.

I would say that what I have just described is likely considered by most as a "crazy" amount of brace work. Those people would be wrong. Those who advise that a non braced hollow cabinet was designed to be that way (short of BBC style cabinet designs which are a joke) do not have a clue and your BS alerts should go off when you hear such trash talk. If your cabinet walls move they are making noise (distortion). There are extreme instances where resonating cabinet panels have been measured and the total resonant cabinet output was higher in amplitude than the output of the woofer. Brace work matters. The very simple reason why you don't often see much of it in factory cabinets is cost. I hope that this is of interest and of use. Best regards Moray James.

[khornbred]

why should the thread die? the speakers are great. i dare say: Klipschorn great. i have both, and to be honest, i prefer the cf3s for most listening. they are IMHO one of the best bargains in hifi today when they do turn up for sale. i've actually seen quite a few for sale in the last year, an interested buyer should be patient, and diligent with their craigslist searches, some should turn up within road trip distance.

[kapsnb01]

with a retro brace job you are always more restricted than with a new build and you are generally working through driver cut outs. Hereis what I consider a minimum retro brace job for a cabinet suuch as the CF3/4. Baltic Birch ply or solid hard wood such as Oak Birch or Maple for the braces which will be 3/4"x2.5". The reason for these material choices is that you do want to keep your brace volume down and the stiffer the material that you uses the less you need to achieve your goal. The sides will have one vertical brace 3/4"x2.5" on edge vertically up the middle of the panel. The back baffle should have two of these one vertically on either side of the treminal cup. The top will have one brace from front to back. The front baffle should have a horizontal brace above and below each woofer. You can add additional braces and 45 degree wedges to insure the baffle is very rigid around each woofer. I generally leave the bottom of the cabinet open as many end up adding more serious after market crossovers and you will need a space to mount them and the bottom is a good place. Each brace should be fixed to its adajacent panel brace with at least two or three 1"x2" (actual dimension is 3/4"x1.5") stringes which can be made of pine or spruce (solid) the stringers tie the parts together so that the panels cannot expand or compress , in other words the panels can't bulge in any direction. Place stringers side to sideand front to back and dont forget the top and again leave the bottom open for future use. Where possibel contrive to have the stringers bond to one another where possibem and you will end up with a very well braced and stiffed cabinet with the absolute minimum quantity of material.

I would say that what I have just described is likely considered by most as a "crazy" amount of brace work. Those people would be wrong. Those who advise that a non braced hollow cabinet was designed to be that way (short of BBC style cabinet designs which are a joke) do not have a clue and your BS alerts should go off when you hear such trash talk. If your cabinet walls move they are making noise (distortion). There are extreme instances where resonating cabinet panes have been measured and the resonant cabinet output was higher in amplitude thnt the output of the woofer. Brace work matters. The very simple reason why you don't often see much of it in factory cabinets is cost. I hope that this is of interest and of use. Best regards Moray James.

+1 These are the mods that I'm doing for my 3s...looking forward to hearing the results. Will try to post some pictures as I'm working on them.

[kapsnb01]

why should the thread die? the speakers are great.

Could not agree more...[Y]

[megarock]

Epic cf series are some awesome speakers []

i think they were ahead of their time. with cd players using 32 bit and better speaker cable products and amplifiers producing cleaner power at high volumes the cf's sound amazing, i'm trying to picture myself in '94 thinking of the equipment most stores used to power the cf's i bet 80% of it doesn't come close to whats out there today or even 5 years ago,what was a cd player bit back in '94 (8 or 16)? most stores probably tried to hook-up recievers to these huge power hungry beasts(thats a mistake)even today i had a 200 watt b&k powering a cf-4 and it sounded like crap the speaker had no life, hooked up 300 watt mono blocks and wau-la totally different speaker.

That aluminium diaphragm still holds up and is almost equal to the titanium's i have in my klf-30s

ka7niq is right you bi-amp the cf3-4 you will have something special! []