artto Posted December 6, 2007 Share Posted December 6, 2007 What happened to the (ongoing?) results of the Klipsch blind speaker cable tests? When I was at the Pilgrimage a couple years ago they had a user controlled blind testing unit that kept track of the results of all testers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WMcD Posted December 6, 2007 Share Posted December 6, 2007 My recall is that there was a last minute switch of cables which the Klipsch people did not want to elaborate upon. Originally it was suppose to be Monster Wire (remember Klipsch was advertising its use, internally in speakers) versus zip cord. By the time the Pilgrims got to listen, the Monster Wire was changed out for something else like CAT-5 or who knows what. My speculation, PURE speculation, is that the advocate of Monster Wire did a test on Thursday or Friday, and found no change in A-B-X tests. Therefore, Monster Wire was removed from the test, rather than be shown up as having no merit over zip cord. There would be another goat, if there was to be a goat. I was allowed to do an A-B test in that room with the two wire types, whatever they were. I had brought along a CD with a pink noise track. My thought is/was that music is too confused, and confusing, as a signal source. Now this is an interesting question and I don't have an answer. If two systems have different outputs because of changes in freq reponse or anything else, can we detect that better by ear with music, or pink noise, or something else. Both, either, or neither? I could not find a difference A - B, much less with X, with pink noise. I pretty much hold on to my belief that advocates of wire, or anything else, have a burden of proof. Close to this is my belief that if there was some merit to a given manufacturer's superwire, they would come forward with results of a double blind test, or at least a frequency response curve. I've not seen either. Therefore I conclude there is no advantage to superwire over zip cord. I keep an open mind and await data. For the record, Klipsch has presented us with A-Bs of different speakers behind a scrim. It may be tough to choose "better". But there is no question there is a difference. Not so with wire. Gil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest " " Posted December 7, 2007 Share Posted December 7, 2007 If I ever make it to one of these gatherings, I'll bring a pair of Monster sigma retro's and a pair of Monster M 2.2's. It will be no doubt that the cables will sound different than lamp cord. The cables have been manipulated to have their inductance, capacitance and even their resistance altered by the manufactur. For example, with nothing connected on the m-2.2's on either end, the open loop circut resistances is 200 ohms. The question really is if these manipulated cables would be perceived as sounding better or worse than unmanipulated cables. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jheis Posted December 9, 2007 Share Posted December 9, 2007 Right. Different is not the same as "better." James Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Islander Posted December 9, 2007 Share Posted December 9, 2007 Here are my very recent experiences with interconnects. They're not speaker cables, but they are audio system cables, so I think it's relevant. The day before yesterday, I replaced a 2-meter length of Electrohome Pro Series cable connecting my pre-amp/receiver to the power amp with a 1-meter length of WireWorld Luna 5 cable. The low-level buzz from the speakers was reduced by at least 2/3, so it's now almost inaudible and is no longer annoying. Months ago, I tried a variety of cables, including a cheap 1-meter Audio Research cable with no improvement, so the length was not the deciding factor. The speakers were definitely a factor, since there was no buzz when the amp was connected to less sensitive speakers than the La Scalas. Their revealing nature means everything connected to them must sound clean and quiet. After that, I swapped out an Electrohome cable running from the turntable to the pre-amp/receiver for a Wireworld one of the same length. On a particular song by Al Stewart (Roads to Moscow) three bass notes are repeated at certain points in the song. After the cable swap, it became obvious that they're three different notes, descending in pitch. That was barely noticeable before. Some people think all cables are the same, but good ones, even the simple ones, not the exotic ones that speakerfritz refers to, can make real improvements in the sound of a system. I'm no golden ear, but I can hear the differences. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Klipsch Employees Trey Cannon Posted December 9, 2007 Klipsch Employees Share Posted December 9, 2007 What happened was we messed up the test. Some of the speakers were out of phase. Thus, the test was invalid. Zip cord was used and some water hose wire. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest " " Posted December 9, 2007 Share Posted December 9, 2007 you got it....I change my wires to change the sound...it's an individual call to decide what they like better...much in the same way folks change tube brands to change the sound....or even crossover capacitors. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrWho Posted December 9, 2007 Share Posted December 9, 2007 If I ever make it to one of these gatherings, I'll bring a pair of Monster sigma retro's and a pair of Monster M 2.2's. It will be no doubt that the cables will sound different than lamp cord. The cables have been manipulated to have their inductance, capacitance and even their resistance altered by the manufactur. For example, with nothing connected on the m-2.2's on either end, the open loop circut resistances is 200 ohms. The question really is if these manipulated cables would be perceived as sounding better or worse than unmanipulated cables. So do you still hear the difference when the comparison is volume matched? And is your amp still operating within its linear range of operation? 200ohm in series with a speaker is going to introduce pretty large voltage drops...or these line level cables? Even then, you're going to be introducing quite a bit of attenuation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrWho Posted December 9, 2007 Share Posted December 9, 2007 The day before yesterday, I replaced a 2-meter length of Electrohome Pro Series cable connecting my pre-amp/receiver to the power amp with a 1-meter length of WireWorld Luna 5 cable. The low-level buzz from the speakers was reduced by at least 2/3, so it's now almost inaudible and is no longer annoying. It sounds to me like you've got larger ground loop issues. Changing the cable should have absolutely no difference unless it's introducing some attenuation (which is nohwere near ideal behavior for a cable). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest " " Posted December 9, 2007 Share Posted December 9, 2007 The day before yesterday, I replaced a 2-meter length of Electrohome Pro Series cable connecting my pre-amp/receiver to the power amp with a 1-meter length of WireWorld Luna 5 cable. The low-level buzz from the speakers was reduced by at least 2/3, so it's now almost inaudible and is no longer annoying. It sounds to me like you've got larger ground loop issues. Changing the cable should have absolutely no difference unless it's introducing some attenuation (which is nohwere near ideal behavior for a cable). DrWho, what about either shielding differences or the possibility of corrosion on the contacts that the removal and reinstall process took care of. I have also personally seen bad solder joints and then there's the buisness of cables that have the sheilds terminated only on one end to prevent certain types of ground looping....so sure...something may have change..and what's being reported should be considered an accurate report. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrWho Posted December 9, 2007 Share Posted December 9, 2007 Except the wrong reason is being attributed for the fix... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Islander Posted December 9, 2007 Share Posted December 9, 2007 The day before yesterday, I replaced a 2-meter length of Electrohome Pro Series cable connecting my pre-amp/receiver to the power amp with a 1-meter length of WireWorld Luna 5 cable. The low-level buzz from the speakers was reduced by at least 2/3, so it's now almost inaudible and is no longer annoying. It sounds to me like you've got larger ground loop issues. Changing the cable should have absolutely no difference unless it's introducing some attenuation (which is nohwere near ideal behavior for a cable). The sound was a high-pitched buzz, mostly coming from the tweeter, so it didn't seem at all like a 60Hz hum. I suspected the switching power supply of the amp, but it was completely inaudible when the amp was connected to a pair of Totem Wind speakers and almost inaudible when it was connected to a Paradigm CC-370 center speaker. Those speakers have sensitivities in the high 80s and low 90s, respectively.When I tried a 6-meter (20-foot) length of the Wireworld cable some months ago, the buzz was still there, but using a 1-meter (3-foot) length of the exact same cable drastically reduced it. Accordingly, I reasoned that the cable was acting as an antenna and the shorter length made it a less effective antenna. The improved shielding of the Wireworld cable would also let it pick up less interference than the lower-quality Electrohome cable. It all makes sense to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PrestonTom Posted December 9, 2007 Share Posted December 9, 2007 The good news is that the "high pitched buzz" went away. However, it is unlikely that it was due to swapping the speaker cable per se. What you had was not a "hum" and was probably not a grounding issue. It is usually the interconnects which pick up the hiss. This is because they are carrying high impedance signals and this is why they are sometimes shielded, or they must be carefully routed and may need to be configured as balanced lines. Speaker cable is low impedance and does not suffer these problems, hence it is not typically shielded nor run as a balanced line. This type of noise can frequently be attenuated by simply re-routing the interconnects or laying them at a 90 degree angle if they must pass near a power cord. Now, that is a cheap solution. Good Luck, -Tom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Islander Posted December 9, 2007 Share Posted December 9, 2007 Believe me, I routed the cables every which way to try to solve the buzzing issue. I had the amp out on the floor with the interconnects away from everything else, with and without ferrite clamps, but even with the amp connected to nothing but the speakers (interconnect attached to the amp input but not connected at the other end), the buzz was still there. Now, whether the interconnect touches another cable or not seems to make very little difference. I think the short well-shielded cable is the answer to this problem, in this case at least. I may try an even better-shielded cable (likely from the same company) in the future and see if it's even better. For now, I'm enjoying what I'm hearing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrWho Posted December 10, 2007 Share Posted December 10, 2007 Yea, it's great that the buzz went away [Y] But if the buzz was there with no cable attached, then I would suspect a cold solder joint inside the device itself - probably near the connectors or actually part of their joint because it might have been pushed in such a manner so as to recreate the connection (until of course it gets jostled loose again). Granted this is purely speculatory, but I've seen it before and would probably consider it more plausible - especially if none of the previous cables were damaged in any way. But hey, my experience is limited and I'm always open to learning new things... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Islander Posted December 10, 2007 Share Posted December 10, 2007 Dr Who wrote: But if the buzz was there with no cable attached, then I would suspect a cold solder joint inside the device itself - probably near the connectors or actually part of their joint because it might have been pushed in such a manner so as to recreate the connection (until of course it gets jostled loose again). Granted this is purely speculatory, but I've seen it before and would probably consider it more plausible - especially if none of the previous cables were damaged in any way. But hey, my experience is limited and I'm always open to learning new things... When the amp had no input cables connected to it, there was silence at the speakers. As soon as an input cable was attached, there was a buzz, even with nothing on the other end of the cable. That led me to believe that the cable was acting as an antenna. At present, I'm just getting a very faint hiss that can only be heard within six inches of the tweeter and only when the room is very quiet. Last night, I was listening to 'All We Have Is Now' by The Flaming Lips, on a CD that I listen to at least once a week and am very familiar with. That song has some very low-level vocals at certain points and I could never make out the lowest passages, even when listening very carefully. Last night I could hear the words clearly enough to understand them for the first time. Lowered noise floor? Less distortion? I don't know which it is, but now I can hear things I couldn't hear before and it's definitely not imagination, placebo effect, predisposition, self-justification of money spent, or anything like that. The shorter length of better-quality cable made a noticeable improvement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrWho Posted December 10, 2007 Share Posted December 10, 2007 When the amp had no input cables connected to it, there was silence at the speakers. As soon as an input cable was attached, there was a buzz, even with nothing on the other end of the cable. That led me to believe that the cable was acting as an antenna. Does the same interference thing happen now if you disconnect your shorter cable in the same manner? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Islander Posted December 10, 2007 Share Posted December 10, 2007 I don't have time today, but I'll give it a try tomorrow. It means crawling under the sub to get behind the audio stand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrWho Posted December 10, 2007 Share Posted December 10, 2007 Yikes, if it's too much trouble, don't worry about it. They're just questions of curiosity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Islander Posted December 10, 2007 Share Posted December 10, 2007 No worries, I'm curious, too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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