Really want to save the planet? GET OFF IT!

[ZAKO]

Back to that football game on the moon,,,,We dont need to build a stadium,,,We can watch the game with telescopes from here,,,Paint the ball in dayglow orange pick the biggest smoothest crater for the playing field,,,,"The CRATER BOWL "

[oldenough]

Dave goodmorning, When talking of global warming and it's historic significance, how do we take into consideration the population at these times? Surely in the 13th century the 300 million or so souls on this planet had little to no affect, today...what is it ? something like 7 BILLION. I think it probably is the foremost threat at this time.

[Mallette]

I did not make my position clear. While I believe that the effects of our carbon emissions may be accelerating warming, I see no evidence presented to suggest that the trend itself is anything unusual. It's been happening since day one, often with far greater consequences. You think the ice ages were brought on by mammoth farts? :-0.

Now, an ICE AGE...that would get my attention!

Just what effect decreasing emissions may have remains to be seen. There are good arguments beyound warming to do so, and I am all for it. However, it will not change natural cycles.

Dave

[ZAKO]

I would fear another ice age more than globle warming. You would be cutting up your Khorns to keep warm.. You cant grow crops in 40 below.

[jacksonbart]

Its why I build model rockets.

[Mallette]

I would fear another ice age more than globle warming. You would be cutting up your Khorns to keep warm.. You cant grow crops in 40 below.

Fer shure Chicago wouldn't be nice. OTOH, the Sahara was a wonderfully huge lake during the last one. In fact, some suggest that civilization in the Nile valley happend around the 100th century BC when, due to warming, the monsoons began to flood creating the white Nile (Blue was already there) and the seasonal flooding of the Nile valley. Those fleeing the dieing Sahara wetland settled there, and even in Roman times the north coast of Africa was verdant farm land that fed the empire. Just desert now, and humans had absolutely nothing to do with it.

Dave

[Marvel]

All the above is written to support my contention that it is not technology that stands in the way of mankinds release from the womb, but WILL. It also offers, coincidently, the solution to all our problems of living on this earth, but must be a part of that solution as well.

That was really my point, too. Whether political or religious motivation, if the WILL is not there, nothing will change. All that is based on our worldview. As you have also said, we are in this boat together, and in that sense, we must work together or it won't work at all. The earth will cycle through its hot and cold spells with or without us here. We use too much, we waste too much, claiming it is our right.

Now, if Mark could just make tube equipment as efficient as those chip based digital amps...

Bruce

[oldenough]

All the above is written to support my contention that it is not technology that stands in the way of mankinds release from the womb, but WILL. It also offers, coincidently, the solution to all our problems of living on this earth, but must be a part of that solution as well.

That was really my point, too. Whether political or religious motivation, if the WILL is not there, nothing will change. All that is based on our worldview. As you have also said, we are in this boat together, and in that sense, we must work together or it won't work at all. The earth will cycle through its hot and cold spells with or without us here. We use too much, we waste too much, claiming it is our right.

Now, if Mark could just make tube equipment as efficient as those chip based digital amps...

Bruce

The biggest problems to solve are both political and religious, until we get past this we are lost. It's a shame that this part of the dialogue can't be discussed without the threat of curtailment of this thread.

[oldtimer]

Dave, I will start this post by saying that I read your first post and nothing more. The planet will be just fine as long as it lasts with or without us. If we kill ourselves off by destroying "our environment" by which i mean the one which we have evolved in but by no means is necessarily the first or last one that will be on this orb, then afterwards the planet will "heal itself" if that is one's view or otherwise will reach a new state of temporary equillibrium until something else changes things. Only man's ego-centric view leads to the conclusion of some imagined "control" over a constantly changing piece of ground in a vast universe. Draw your own conclusions from that folks.

So my point is that there are those who cry "save the planet" who are basically misguided and think that the planet is what is truly important, and then there are those who cry "save the planet" and what they really mean is "don't screw it up so that we can't live here, " and then there are those who quietly say "lets make the best of what we have while we have it and not screw it up so much that we can't live here anymore." And of course it goes downhill from there to such views as "you should not be allowed to live here unless you agree with my limited beliefs."

[oldenough]

Oldtimer, the start of your second paragraph was intriguing, "So my point is". From there on i have been trying to understand what your point is.

[Mallette]

Well, oldtimer, I was a bit strident in that post but have mellowed since. You bring up a good point not previously mooted in these proceedings. It's sort of the Gaia principle that suggests Earth will take care of itself. If we overpopulate or pollute, Earth will send a plague or tilt the balance some other way to eliminate the threat and restore equilibrium. Some take this close to religion, others see it as highly evolved physical laws.

I cannot deny it based on any evidence, but if true it simply offers further reason to get away from here before Mother gets riled.

Regards, and "I wish I was in Denton, hooray, hooray!

Dave

[oldtimer]

LOL, i guess what i mean is that everyone has a different view of exactly what "save the planet" means, and that for the most part, the planet is secondary to that view. (replying to oldenough)

[Mallette]

OK, so this may be winding down, and that is cool. Been lots of fascinating banter and good-natured fun. However, I do wish we had more real counterpoint. Let me be straight: I intend to write and op ed based on that first post most likely for the Houston Chronicle. Living in a neighborhood with astronauts and scientists who work at LBJ Space Center in Space City, I have a renewed interest. I've read quite a few editorials plugging the space program in the Chronicle and not a one of the reallly gets to the heart of the matter...it is NOT OPTIONAL.

Let me refine my original hypothesis and see what bricks you can throw at it:

An all-out effort to develop space travel technology is not optional as there is no other way to insure survival for our children.

Go for it...

Dave

PS-This op ed will not be for pay, so don't think I am using this forum for commercial purposes. Just good fun and a straw man. Forum folks are about the smartest I know.

[oldenough]

LOL, i guess what i mean is that everyone has a different view of exactly what "save the planet" means, and that for the most part, the planet is secondary to that view. (replying to oldenough)

Uhhh!!

[oldtimer]

It is a prime mover of evolution to propagate (and therefore preserve) the species, so your thesis is correct. Oldenough, what do you mean by Uhhh?

[oldenough]

Dave, i think that the problem is far more immediate, . We are not to a point where we need to think about abandoning this planet and all our efforts should be to putting things to right. We need that time to develop the technology that you are hoping for, and i'm sure we will get there. You seem to have a simplistic approach to the problems that exist. I for one do not believe that somewhere in the western desert there is a bunch of brilliant scientists sitting on the answer we need, and if they do then we ( as in the majority ) will not benefit anything. Look at the provisions already in place for a global disaster, where is the space in that enormous bomb shelter in Colorado for the ordinary man.? I happen to think that there should be more of a cross section of humanity that should be saved. Recent events should have taught us that Senators and Congressmen should be the last one's in the life-boat.[]

This has been a great thread, let's hope it go'es on

[Mallette]

>Dave, i think that the problem is far more immediate, . We are not to a
point where we need to think about abandoning this planet and all our
efforts should be to putting things to right.

I agree with both sentences. I've never suggesting abandoning ship immediately. I do hope for a future Earth returned to its natural beauty with only a few caretakers and park rangers present...but that is a long time off and not part of the hypothesis to start with.

>You seem to have a simplistic approach to the problems that exist.

The problem is simply stated, as is the solution. I did not say that implementing the solution would be simple or immediate. In fact, my thrust has been that it is quite difficult and we need to start now with far more will.

>I for one do not believe that somewhere in the western desert there is
a bunch of brilliant scientists sitting on the answer we need, and if
they do then we ( as in the majority ) will not benefit anything.

Well, if I could share with you a series of off line emails I rec'd earlier today, it might change your mind about that. Can't do that, and it really is not germane.

>Look at the provisions already in place for a global disaster, where is
the space in that enormous bomb shelter in Colorado for the ordinary
man?

There are provisions for a global disaster? Nobody told me. Anyway, the bottom line is only a single breeding pair...

>Recent events should have taught us that Senators and Congressmen should be the last one's in the life-boat.

Unqualified agreement without comment!

Dave

[oldenough]

Mallette said ,"There are provisions for a global disaster? Nobody told me. Anyway, the bottom line is only a single breeding pair."..

I thought it was general knowledge that in the event of some sort of disaster the leadership of this nation had a bolt-hole in The Rockies. Sure we only need a breeding pair, Who do ya wanna pick out of that bunch to represent man-kind.

I somehow think that if you were to share those off line e-Mails some of us might find them to be germane, it does not comfort me to know that you are priviliged to be in the loop.

[Mallette]

>I somehow think that if you were to share those off line e-Mails some
of us might find them to be germane, it does not comfort me to know
that you are priviliged to be in the loop.

Not priviliged, entrusted with a confidence from an individual with a need to share something with someone they felt they could trust. I was honored. It should comfort you that there are those who can be trusted. Also, not germane to my hypothesis. Sorry I mentioned it...I should not have. Loose lips sink ships.

Dave

[oldenough]

Mallette, your response suprises me, and with respect, smells like a cop out. Did you think before you posted that interest would not be generated? I for one am not comforted to know someone can trust you with information deemed unfit for general consumption. Thinking that it was you who started this thread one would hope your sense of responsibilty to the topic at hand would at least allow you to summarize said trusted information in general terms. Or are we getting into the realm of top-secret.