Really want to save the planet? GET OFF IT!

[Mallette]

>Space colonization could, at best, allow a few individuals to survive the Earth's demise briefly.

I just grabbed this one target of opportunity from your post, Neil. I did not delete the "briefly," but your limit on how long humans clawing for survival might survive strikes me as pure speculation or prophecy...certainly no science there. As to only a few surviving, I would call that success. What we have uncovered of the geologic and fossil record suggests our entire species can be traced to a single female. What are the odds?

Hope some of my descendents are in there, but if not, we are all only six degrees apart and I'll be happy for us.

I am not going to deal with the rest of it as it strikes me as depressive of the worst order. In spite of the tone of my opening statements, I am an optimist. I believe in human ingenuity and ability to overcome any obstacle. If we survive at all, we WILL reach the stars. To say it can't be done is arrogance in the extreme. Our knowledge of the universe is laughable. We can't even quantify the stuff that holds us to the planet. Ever see any gravity? Ever make any? Show me some!

(End response to Neil so he doesn't think the below is directed at anything he said...just a general afterthought).

It's like the atheist who says "Science proves there is no God." I apparently missed that equation in physics. Looking forward to seeing it if someone can produce it. I am not suggesting that anyone believe in a God or Gods, but fer cryin out loud get away from me with suggesting we really have any quantifiable (in terms of percent of the total available) amount of scientific knowledge yet, much less enough to determine the existence of a superior or superior beings. It's absurd. We haven't even existed for enough time to count for anything. Now, the dinosaurs, THEY had an empire for a WHILE! \

Dave

[Mallette]

>Right now there is a huge financial problem that prevents space
exploration: the world is spending all it's spare cash on arms. Look at
the numbers - it is positively shocking. Now, had that dough gone into
space..........

Frankly, I'd take just the tens of billions spent on prohibition, the War on Black People, or the War on Drugs...whatever you want to call it. How is a rational person supposed to deal with that peculiar institution that simply ups the ante, which ups the price, which provides more money to the criminals to beat the cops. When I was a kid, the price of a pound of weed was 40.00. No serious criminal would risk himself for a valueless weed. Now, take that same weed and put a life sentence on it and it's suddenly worth more than gold and well worth risking yourself for and capable of bringing in enough income to build a criminal empire. It only took us from 1919 to 1933 to realize alchohol prohibition was insane and only created Al Capone, Inc. We've been at this one now with even more disastrous results to society for 30 over years now. How can we be so stupid? Maybe we have devolved and really don't deserve to survive.

I digress. At least it's MY thread . :-).

[Daddy Dee]

Also, one more quick thought that perhaps Bruce might enjoy. Although I am not a believer in the Christian faith per se, I am an ardant admirer of Jesus the Teacher, and I think his message is among the best the world has ever heard. Anyway, this is what he said: "Consider the lillies of the field. They neither toil, nor do they spin, and yet even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these." I should think in today's state of world crisis (as inferred by Dave), this teaching would have enormous power. I wonder what people think he meant by this?

my take.... worry is a spirit killer and a waste of life, which is inexpressibly precious..

[oldenough]

All the money spent on all the fruitless causes through-out the modern era could not overcome the technological hurdles that exist, and are not likely to be cleared in the foreseeable future. Sure if we are aiming our sites at near objects like Mars...Do-able. Anywhere else means leaving our solar system, saying that this would not be such an easy task would be a gross understatement. Fix the problems we have here.

[Mallette]

>All the money spent on all the fruitless causes through-out the modern
era could not overcome the technological hurdles that exist, and are
not likely to be cleared in the foreseeable future.

How can you be so sure about that which has not been attempted? In 1949 it was the opinion of most scientists working in the area that the sound barrier was impenetrable.

>Fix the problems we have here.

My original statement was that the problems we have here are inherently unfixable, only delayable and even then for an aburdly short time. How do you plan to create infinite space and resources in a finite pin point? Got a thought on how to create a singularity???

I am all for starting with the moon. I suspect it has the resources to handle millions of us for quite some time...and I'd be OK with just a breeding pair. As to Mars, perhaps billions with patient terraforming. However, again even a few would at least provide a chance for humankind. Beyond that, there is Titan and others like it, as well as untold asteriods which can be hollowed out, spun, and turned into marvelous habititats with everything humans need for the better life.

There are infinite possibilities, and we only need to realize one.

Dave

[bluesboy]

The concept of God was created by men. Why is it that religion has a monopoly on morality given it's track record?

[Mallette]

> The concept of God was created by men.

Good grief, how silly. E=MC2 was created by man. Are you suggested that is why it exists?

Dave

PS-Sheesh, forgive me, but I just have to add that the second statement (not mine, yours) was so specious and tired as to not warrant comment. Even a bear won't take the bait every time.

PPS-Come to think of it, you could be right. The Final Anthropomorphic Principle suggests that whatever we observe comes into being at the moment we observe it.

[oldenough]

Dave, i'm right with you on all the points,,,except i do think it's fixable, if the same resources and willpower you want to commandeer for exploration were applied to the problems we have caused here. The answer lies in getting all of us to agree that we have a problem, and that we are willing to fix it. I also agree that it is not likely to happen. Oh well, the best i can hope for is a seat on the first ship outta here.

PS i hope You and Mark occupy the seat on either side of mine, i've got a lot to learn.

[bluesboy]

Yes, That's exactly what I'm suggesting.

[oldenough]

" The concept of God was created by men."

"Good grief, how silly. E=MC2 was created by man. Are you suggested that is why it exists"?

Is'nt one a scientific fact and one a......?

[Mallette]

Ok, let's review so far. We seem to have settled into

1. We can fix it. (So far not supported with how we deal with infinite human expansion in a finite space).

2. We cannot overcome the hurdles of space travel. (So let's don't try)

3. Awww, there ain't no God. (Not relevant or provable)

I am hoping for something a bit more cerebral from this august group which I hold in high esteem.

Dave

[oldenough]

The problem is that we are hoping you have the answer. Hurry it up i'm looking forward to the trip.[]

you do realize if it gets too cerebral Amy will shut us down.[]

[oldenough]

Ok, let's review so far. We seem to have settled into

1. We can fix it. (So far not supported with how we deal with infinite human expansion in a finite space).

2. We cannot overcome the hurdles of space travel. (So let's don't try)

3. Awww, there ain't no God. (Not relevant or provable)

I am hoping for something a bit more cerebral from this august group which I hold in high esteem.

Dave

1. agreed.

2. we are trying.

3. irrelavent to me, but those who do believe hold sway over the rest of us.

[dtel]

Bird flu, hunk of rock from space,[:S] or man, if it's going to happen it's going to happen.

You may even get hit by a rock, in space escaping earth !

Or we could just be paranoid and worry about everything and drop dead from high blood pressure, me I would rather be suprised ![]

There is better pollution controls now than ever before and with any luck it will get better ? At least they are looking into other ways to produce power it's a step !

" I am hoping for something a bit more cerebral from this august group which I hold in high esteem. "

OK, dude, think positive like the outcome has already been decided, carry on.

Don't Worry be Happy ! [] Put on another song.

Read below.

[Mallette]

TBHWY, I really do not know the rules on such things, other than common sense about ridculing race, creed, color, sex, national origin, etc. I hope we would at least get some warning as to what the issues are. I really need at least the real thinking parts of this thread.

After all, it is "General."

If shutdown is a real threat, please let me know why.

Anyway, I DO have the answer, at least one. If we threw even 5% of planetary output into research, the results would be beyond comprehension. Remember my statement that there was only 4 centuries between the tiny ships of the explorers and the Olympic (more favvored and successful sister of Titanic). The original explorers would not have been able to comprehend either the scale or the technology involved in those ships. Let's not even consider exposing them to the thousands of aircraft and millions of humans being transported by aircraft. And all that was simply by undirected development.

No way I can prove it will happen, but my belief is that FTL or some other form of going from point A to point B whilst ignoring the space in between is no farther from us than these thing of the present are from us, and if we actually shoot for them, even sooner.

Just building big, fast sub-light ships for use in the neighborhood is, well, childs play. All the technology is already here, all we need is the will to do itl.

We just have to get busy.

Dave

[dtel]

Ask someone who is 80 or older they will say the change in the last 30-40 years is unbelievable, think of just the changes in medicine in that time.

[oldenough]

Sure! Also ask anyone over eighty if they think the general change is for the good of this planet. Oh maybe you should'nt, just the fact that their pain at the end of their lifetime has been allieviated by modern drugs might skew their thinking.

[Mallette]

Well, I have to be at work at dark thirty ensuring those nasty old oil wells keep turning to the right so your lights stay on...at least until we run out. And I am in a position to know that we are.

Regards to all,

Dave

[dtel]

At least, now by law you can't just pump anything out a pipe into the air or dump whatever you want into a river or landfill . That is at least is an improvement for the good, and without some of the drugs some would not be here to know anyway.

Now I never said everyone is operating by the law.

I keep getting emails wanting to know if I want to buy carbon offset credits,................. yea I have your carbon credits right here !

[Marvel]

I really am running short on fuel, but I want to get something on here. First, I will preface my remarks by saying I am not going to attack anyone. Maybe their ideas, but it's just that.

1. Do I think we can work out something to get a lot of us into space in a short period of time?... my answer is yes, but the public must buy into it, even knowing that he/she won't be able to get on the "ark ", if I may use that imagery.

2. Do I think things can be fixed here?... my answer is yes, but see my caveat above.

3. Is there a God, is there not a God... I will agree with Dave... that is a red herring to stop the conversation.

Read the following at your own risk: My personal take, and one that I have held for years, is that Christianity, upon which Western Civilization has been built, is progressive and not cyclical as most Eastern religions and philosophies. It may not seem that way at any given moment in history, but plotted on a graph, it does go up, it does progress. There may be dips along the way, but we are not ever back at the beginning.

It wasn't that long ago that all of man's labors were directed toward staying alive, to eke out a living. As technology came along... too many things to list... steam power, use of electricity, communication technologies, medicine, we ended up with a division of labor. What a wonderful thing. I no longer have to spend all my time growing food, making clothes, medicine, my transportation, etc. What we gained is efficiency by division of labor.

So what, you ask? It also means that we have a lot of spare time, free time. What do we do with that time? For many, it is used for fruitless occupations and labors. Don't get me wrong, we all do this to some degree. Let's see... Pro sports, a boat,recreational boating, fishing, hunting, canoeing... ad infinitum...

We can add HT and great audio systems to the list (pointing finger at myself, don't worry). What we do is spend all the brain power and time on things that don't really matter. Entertainment is ok, games are ok... most things are to some degree. But what if it was spent on solving the problems Dave has brought up? We haven't even gotten to the military budget yet. We really have money and brain power to burn, but we use it for the wrong things. God gave us a brain to use, and it should be obvious that we aren't using it very well.

End of this part

------

Mark - your question about Mark 6:28 is also somewhat of a red herring. I agree with Daddy Dee (gee, he IS a pastor, you know). Worry is a spirit killer. But your take is out of context (how nice of you). There are too many other places in Scripture that talk about us being good stewards. Move on over in Matthew to chapter 25, verses 14 and following. It is the parable about the talents. This is where I would say that God expects us to use what he has given us. He doesn't really need what we can do, but we need it, and we need it badly.

Dave - you only are looking at Jesus as a teacher, while ignoring orthodox Christianity seeing and proclaiming Jesus as God. If you leave that out, most of His teaching will make no sense. So... before this gets locked, I will stop. Time for bed.

Thanks guys... there's more in my head but I need to sleep.