Deang Posted February 13, 2008 Share Posted February 13, 2008 Hey, I've never given you a hard time! If you want to see what that looks like go search out those threads between Craig and me. I went back and read his post again. You're right, he just wants to run one of the two he has. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted February 13, 2008 Share Posted February 13, 2008 dtel is old like me, he don't even need a tweeter. Just toss a K-400/K-55 up there and use an iPod. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jwc Posted February 13, 2008 Share Posted February 13, 2008 I see your point.....more logic....of what should make sense. You have much more experience than I and have the qualifications. These points have been brought up before...to some degree. I don't have the techy to argue with them or say it doesn't work that way. But what I can say...is that it can work another way.....different logic. I don't want to sell it or promote it...but it works for me. So Dean...If Dtel wants to run two K33's or K43's in parallel, with a K55 and k400 and some other tweeter with higher total spl...what do you suggest? I laid out a possibility......let's hear yours. I remember djk coming up with a real simple way of doing this when I posed a similar question.....I'll have to look at my home computer info. jc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jwc Posted February 13, 2008 Share Posted February 13, 2008 With all this input...I believe I'm unclear of what exactly Dtel has in his hands right now. jc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted February 13, 2008 Share Posted February 13, 2008 O.K., well, if the bottom is really 108dB (and I'm not sure about that), and you wanted a more complex network (as opposed to one with just a few parts) -- then a slightly modified LB-76 network might work. The LF section was 108dB/w, PK ran the squawker unattenuated, and used a T2A (with the iron removed) in reverse to raise the output of the K-77. If it was me, I would be tempted to just run the MWM's full out with no coil and let them die out on their own -- it's not like he's going to be doing critical listening or putting on rock concerts. It could be built with Janzten Crosscaps for pretty cheap. Not sure about flipping the autoformer, it shouldn't be too hard to figure out: in tap 1 out tap 2, or in tap 4 and out tap 5 -- not sure about that one -- would have to play. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arky Posted February 13, 2008 Share Posted February 13, 2008 With all this input...I believe I'm unclear of what exactly Dtel has in his hands right now. jc All I have is a pair of single mwm bass ( 2 bins ) and a pair of Heresys in the shop with the Bob Crites tweeters. So I am trying to get this crazy idea done with out ending up with a complete set of mcms and a big expense.me: carry on, i'll have questions for you guys in a few months. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jwc Posted February 13, 2008 Share Posted February 13, 2008 OK. Well are those two MWM-s going to be under one Heresy or is this a stereo setup in which a single bin (1/2 MWM stack) going to be under a heresy? If a mono setup, I would just put both MWM-s under one Heresy and do what Dr. Who suggested. If stereo, more complicated. jc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators dtel Posted February 13, 2008 Author Moderators Share Posted February 13, 2008 [:'(] I had to go to work and I missed all this. So this is what happens when you put a bunch of smart speaker types together, wow. I don't have any drivers for the mwm bins yet. And the only other thing I have is a pair of original Heresys in the workshop. I was going to steal the drivers off the midrange for the k400 (should be the same) and the Bob Crites tweeters from the Heresys ? One bin per side. No problems with any of the comments in this thread, I am just glad to have the help, although I think I am a little more confused now. I don't need to get it done in a hurry just looking to figure out what direction to go, so I don't end up with a shop full of parts that would make me want to build something else. I am running out of room for completed speakers. I am saving room inside the house for the last speakers I want, and that will take up the last 6 feet on each side of the room, for that I already know what I need, but that's just on hold for now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jwc Posted February 13, 2008 Share Posted February 13, 2008 Then this is easier than i made it out to be. Soo.. This is a stereo setup three way with an MWM-s, K400/k55 and CT-125 tweeter. What woofer? If a K33 or crites woofer, then this will be a snap...but what a Joy. But Dean.......That network was used on the MCM setup in the past? If so, wasn't the midrange different and how could you make any prediction of an acoustical response with a different driver and horn combo for the midrange......and there would need to be a way to attenuate...Maybe. Was there an MCM setup with just one K77 and PWK reversed an autoformer to get more output? Never seen that. jc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrWho Posted February 13, 2008 Share Posted February 13, 2008 If a mono setup, I would just put both MWM-s under one Heresy and do what Dr. Who suggested. If stereo, more complicated. Just to clarify, "strapping to mono" means sending a stereo signal to the amplifier and then summing them together to send a mono output. In the case of the XTi, Channel 1 would have the HF/MF stereo information summed to mono and Channel 2 would have the LF stereo information summed to mono. You then connect both HF/MF sections to channel 1 and both MWM's to channel 2. So now you got two sets of speakers playing the same thing with the active crossover. Running the MWM full out to drop off when it pleases would be an even cheaper alternative... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators dtel Posted February 13, 2008 Author Moderators Share Posted February 13, 2008 " What woofer? If a K33 or crites woofer, then this will be a snap...but what a Joy." Bob's if it doesnt matter, either really. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jwc Posted February 13, 2008 Share Posted February 13, 2008 If Bob's or K33, just get you some beater Type A networks and let Bob refresh them. Just one woofer in one horn loaded MWM-s will have a similar output as say a la scala. So you will have a la scala with a bass bin making a Dtel shop statement. I say go for it. BUT. I think Dr. Who's option of running the Heresy's stereo through a Crown XTI and mono outing a signal to 2 MWM-s stacked would be cool. Put the stack between the Heresies. But.....not a fully horn loaded system.... jc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted February 13, 2008 Share Posted February 13, 2008 But Dean.......That network was used on the MCM setup in the past? If so, wasn't the midrange different and how could you make any prediction of an acoustical response with a different driver and horn combo for the midrange......and there would need to be a way to attenuate...Maybe. Was there an MCM setup with just one K77 and PWK reversed an autoformer to get more output? Never seen that. I didn't say it was for the MCM, I said it was for the LB-76 -- PWK's "Little B@stard". Horn loaded K-33 with 108db/w output, K-500 I think with the K-55 and K-77 tweeter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jwc Posted February 13, 2008 Share Posted February 13, 2008 Wow. A horn loaded K33 hittin' 108dB. I guess I'm not familiar with that setup. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted February 13, 2008 Share Posted February 13, 2008 Patent number 4237340 if you'd like to read about it. Real earbleeders I bet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jwc Posted February 13, 2008 Share Posted February 13, 2008 Patent number 4237340 if you'd like to read about it. Real earbleeders I bet. Not if you strap a bunch of cheap resistors parallel to the drivers!!![+o(] Well Dean.....does a Type A network fit the cheap bill for Dtel? jc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted February 13, 2008 Share Posted February 13, 2008 Not if you strap a bunch of cheap resistors parallel to the drivers!!! Right, but use expensive resistors, they sound better. Well Dean.....does a Type A network fit the cheap bill for Dtel? Works for me, we can always fix it later if he wants to tweak things -- then we can disagree again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WMcD Posted February 13, 2008 Share Posted February 13, 2008 If I may comment. Here is the link to the K-400. http://forums.klipsch.com/forums/storage/3/445307/K-400%20Article.pdf The bigger story in general is that elementry crossover design shows graphs about how the voltage output of the filters, usually high pass and low pass, will sum if each are driving resistors. But the real world is very much more complicated. One issue is that electomechanical drivers do not act like resistors (the electrical load which the filters "look into"), particularly in the regions where the crossover, from one driver to the other is supposed to take place. I don't have graphs on this handy. This, to some extent, messes up the output of the crossover filters. Some designers add electrical components (R-L-C) to fix up the electrical impedance so that the filters work in a more predictable way. And driver spacing injects another variable. The second issue is at least as big. The acoustic output of horn-driver combination (other types too), rolls off often just where we place (in frequency) the crossover filter. For example, if you look at the curves in the article, you will see that, roughly, the K-400 and driver combination (presumably without an electrical filter) is rolling off at about 18 dB per octave between 400 and 200 Hz. Below that, I believe the equipment is just going flat line and does not accurately show the further roll off. In any event, when you put a 6 dB per octave electrical high pass filter on the K-400 and driver combo, you're getting an additional roll off, but there is a formatable roll off without it. For the most part, the electical filter is keeping bass out of the K-55 driver and helping the acoustic roll off a bit. Also, the amp is not electrically loaded below 400 Hz (much) because of the filter. Overall, I'd think that a K-400 would work well with the MCM. I believe the midbass horn in theater speakers is there to control pattern coverage more than level. Klipsch used the MCM bass in other applications with K-400s. Gil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest " " Posted February 13, 2008 Share Posted February 13, 2008 ok, I read all the comments, they all sound well thought out and have some interesting points. The only other item I can throw on the table is the approach k-55's were used with MWM's. There was a manifold called a KM-4 (or K-M4) which basically allowed 4 k-55's to be bolted to a 2" format horn. I have a set of these and they are an interesting piece of work. But anyway, cut a plastic k-401 in half as a few folks have done and put a manifold on it with 4 k-55's and I think the balance will be there. The top end used 5 pizeo tweets. A k-401 with a 2" throat will have a lower frequency response since the throat size as well as the exit size are both factors. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators dtel Posted February 13, 2008 Author Moderators Share Posted February 13, 2008 I would like to thank everyone for all the ideas, information like this from people who really know the products is very special. Thanks everybody. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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