Room too small for K-Horns?

[JBryan]

As said before, the size of your room isn't ideal and you will have to make some adjustments and compromises but it still can work. Somebody also mentioned that the dimensions will cause problems and that's a definite possibility - square rooms are notorious for having all sorts of resonance and cancellation problems. Perhaps you should look into room treatments as they may have a greater effect on achieving a satisfying sound as anything else in your audio chain. Lucky you, there are some bona fide acoustic experts on this Forum. Do a search on the 'Architectural' forum - plenty of good advise and information there.

[PrestonTom]

The room would be small for K-Horns.

Let me make a helpful suggestion. If there are other larger rooms available, but you did not consider them because of a lack of two corners, perhaps you could try those rooms and construct a false corner (or half corner). The false corners work well and are not a compromise solution in the least.

Good Luck & BTW my free advice is to go for the Cornwalls if the K-Horns don't work out.

-Tom

[Don Richard]

Your room is not too small, the speakers you want are too big! I've heard Khorns in a small room and compared to the same speakers in a 24x19 foot room, well, no comparison. If you think you will move into a bigger space fairly soon, go ahead but don't expect wonders. If you plan on staying where you're at for some time, get smaller speakers. The room gain alone, never mind boundary cancellations, portend bad results with Khorns.

[texas42]

Well, I just picked up a pair of nice Oiled Oak Forte II's (for $450). The price local availability were too good to pass on. Now, at least if the KHorn guy backs out, I still have a nice pair of speakers. I might also pick up a pair of Cornwalls to compare with the Forte's if the KHorns fall through...

[oldbuckster]

CORNWALLS ........................ if you don't have room for KHorns ...................

[Mallette]

CORNWALLS ........................ if you don't have room for KHorns ...................

I second the buckmeister. The Cornies can be angled as required to handle the room just as easily as a smaller speaker, and will make AWESOME rears or second system if you ever get the K'horns and room for the whole thing.

Dave

[HarryO]

Cornwalls can't be beat in your room. My personal favorite from Klipsch.

However, I've been tweaking on a pair of old Khorns for a couple of months for a small room with no corners and I've found you can sure make them sound sweet. I bought these old K's with just this intention for smaller room use. Granted the larger rooms will bring out more but you're not limited as much by room size as you might think. Just a few "minor adjustments" make a world of difference.

Harry

[JJkizak]

The thing about Cornwalls is you wonder how a conventional looking speaker can sound that good. It's a wonderment.

JJK

[Don Richard]

However some systems, definitely the Klipschorns, do have this ability to sound like live music as it would propagate from another room. It is an interesting effect and not all speakers can mimic this. I suspect it has something to do with the loaded horns ability to have both a deep and clean bass response along with the K-Horns ability to accurately reproduce transients and dynamics. But I am only guessing.

The answer to why Khorns sound like real music in another room is simple - SPL. You are about as far as you can get from a speaker when it is cornered. To output a given SPL at the listening position the corner horn system would have to be louder than speakers located closer (not in the corners). In fact, if the corner horns are twice the distance from the listening position compared to the other speakers, the corner horn's output would have to be 6 dB SPL louder to equal the other speakers output at the listening position. In this case, the sound would be nearly 6 dB louder at any given point throughout the building outside of the listening room, compared to the other speaker.

Other factors may include the high axial Q ( directivity index) of the Khorn as well as lower distortion at high SPL.

[PrestonTom]

Don, I am not sure I follow. When you are in the next room, you are even further away from the "corner".

It is not simply high SPL, because you can crank up other speakers and not get the same sensation.

The low distortion (esp in the bass) is certainly part of the cause, since Cornwalls are not as compelling in giving this sensation (both are are horn loaded mids, but only the K-Horn is horn loaded bass).

I don't see how Q & directivity can be the cause. When you are in the next room the Q has no meaning. Perhaps you were thinking of the ratio of direct to indirect (reflected) sound. But that would not make sense because the ratio would now be minimal. In fact the reverberation is now even more audible.

It is a fairly compelling illusion, although if forced to choose I think most could always tell the difference between real and reproduced music in the next room. Here, it is just a bit easier to convince yourself.

-Tom

[Don Richard]

don't see how Q & directivity can be the cause. When you are in the next room the Q has no meaning. Perhaps you were thinking of the ratio of direct to indirect (reflected) sound. But that would not make sense because the ratio would now be minimal. In fact the reverberation is now even more audible.

Axial Q accurately describes the way that the direct sound field propagates into the room. It is a single number that describes the polar pattern of the speaker better than "nominal 90 deg H". A pattern control horn (high axial Q) keeps more sound off the walls until it travels some distance, There are less early reflections from the horn, thus creating clearer, less smeared sound whether you are in the room or not.

When I had LaScalas they sounded just like the Khorns outside the listening room when playing equal SPLs.

[Don Richard]

don't see how Q & directivity can be the cause. When you are in the next room the Q has no meaning. Perhaps you were thinking of the ratio of direct to indirect (reflected) sound. But that would not make sense because the ratio would now be minimal. In fact the reverberation is now even more audible.

Axial Q accurately describes the way that the direct sound field propagates into the room. It is a single number that describes the polar pattern of the speaker better than "nominal 90 deg H". A pattern control horn (high axial Q) keeps more sound off the walls until it travels some distance, There are less early reflections from the horn, thus creating clearer, less smeared sound whether you are in the room or not.

When I had LaScalas they sounded just like the Khorns outside the listening room when playing equal SPLs.

[PrestonTom]

Axial Q accurately describes the way that the direct sound field propagates into the room. It is a single number that describes the polar pattern of the speaker better than "nominal 90 deg H". A pattern control horn (high axial Q) keeps more sound off the walls until it travels some distance, There are less early reflections from the horn, thus creating clearer, less smeared sound whether you are in the room or not.

When I had LaScalas they sounded just like the Khorns outside the listening room when playing equal SPLs.

Don, I understand what Q is, but my confusion is that all the sound in the "next room" is reflected sound. The direct and indirect all have to bounce out of the room and bounce down the hallway etc. In fact the (originally) direct sound may not even be the first down the hallway. Anyhow, we are both aware of the phenomenon, I am glad you were able to get the effect with the La Scalas.

-Tom

[Don Richard]

but my confusion is that all the sound in the "next room" is reflected sound

Early reflections + direct sound = smeared transients, comb filtering, bad freq response.

Later reflections = ambience, diffused sound, less combing, more even freq response.

Acoustical phenomena, such as comb filtering and its effects, cannot be undone once they occur. You will hear these effects whether you are in or out of the room where the speakers are located.

BTW, if one can get the early reflections at the listening position to be more than 12 - 15 milliseconds then you can hear the detail of early reflections in the recording studio from floor bounce, etc. It amuses me to no end to hear people say that a certain amplifier or other electronic component "brings out inner detail" when their speaker setup masks such detail so that it cannot be heard.

[PrestonTom]

Don, we will have to agree to disagree on this one.

I think the main factors are the dynamics (however one measures that) and the low distortion. The other factors are pretty well obscured by the "funny" propagation path: out the door and down the hall etc.

However this is just speculation and it is not clear the phenomena is solid enough to systematically tease apart the various influences. Still, it is fun to speculate.

-Tom

BTW: I certainly agree that getting a handle on the interaction of the speaker and room is a much better target when trying to improve the "inner detail" (assuming the recording and the electronics are not dismal)

[kevinmi]

Here's my set up. Listening area is 11' 10" Corner to no corner) by 10'6". I thought that my room would be way too small, but in reality it sounds fantastic. I do have my Khorns boxed in, so I'm not dependent on having to place them in corners, even though that does seem to be the best sounding spot for them. I've had Cornwalls and ref 5's in the same room. All sound great, but different from each other. Khorns will blow you away! Just ask my neighbors!--kevin

[IndyKlipschFan]

Those 60th's even if clones or not...... Wow, those are fantastic....

And I am sure sound, incredible too..

[texas42]

Well, since the KHorn deal fell through, I did what any self-respecting Klispch fan would do...I went shopping! Ended up with a nice pair of Oiled Oak Forte II's and today drove to Houston and picked up a nice pair of Chorus I's in Oiled Walnut. Both sound great in my 2 channel room. Initial impressions are the Forte had tighter, better defined bass (although the Chorus has a larger cabinet and active bass driver) but the Chorus sounds a bit more open and airy. The midrange? Too early to tell yet. Thanks to all who offered advice though. I had a shot at a pair of Cornwalls locally but the guy wouldn't budge on his price of $850-900 and they cabinets weren't in that good of shape (unfinished birch finish with chips, etc) and they did not have a riser base. In contrast, I picked up a very nice set of Chorus in walnut with risers for $500, so I'm happy. Attached are pics...

[BE36]

To qoute Groomslakearea51 from another thread "Sit close and crankem up"

The only reason I do not have Khorns along in 9' + wall is I could not raise my LCD high enough, set it back far enough to hear the HF or watch with my 43 old eyes. So it La Scalas up front until I move to the big 12' wide by 20' room, both Khorns will go on the 12' wall and I will sit close with La Scalas by my side for surrounds.

[BE36]

Way to blast out the bass. Nice amps!

With tweaking for position the Forte II will have more open and tighter bass than the Chorus.

Forte IIs can be real sensitive to how far they are placed from the rear wall and side wall. There seams to be a repeating pattern as to how far away they can be and have good or bad base, due the passive resistors? In some rooms 6 inches away from the rear wall sounds good 10 inches sounds bad 18 inches sounds good again etc. Try different depths and distances away from the side walls. Too much stereo cabinet between them or not enough space between them and walls can keep the bass from sounding open and airy, I learned the hard way, purchased a new stand and moved them away from the walls. Most advise is no-toe in on Forte IIs. Out of 6 rooms I have had them in only 1 sounded better with toe-in and it was a really odd shaped loft apartment.

I have listened to K-horns, Forte IIs, La Scalas, Herseys, Cornwalls, Chorus and IMHO, Forte IIs bass is second only to Khorns but just as sensitive to proper placement and tweaking (open vs. sealing). La Scalas have the tightest most musical bass but does not go as low, fine for some poeple but IMHO the require a sub or some special tweaking with amps etc.