Adding a Different Tweeter - Type 'A' Crossover help needed...............

[Cut-Throat]

Kevin, that tweeter is down enough in sensitivity where you're crossing over that you might not have to do anything to the crossover. I suggest just trying it without changes first. You don't listen very loud, so the bit of elevated output on top might work well for you. If it sounds too hot, just drop the tweeter down to tap 3 along with the squawker (yes, you can do that).

Thanks Dean! - Since the K-77 is 104db and the B&C is 107db, I was going to try Tap 4 first, which would be 3db down. If that is still too 'hot' then I was going to try tap 3. - BTW - Dropping the midrange to Tap 3 really made a great improvement in my system. I think my Altec Driver is 109db.

[ClaudeJ1]

Kevin, that tweeter is down enough in sensitivity where you're crossing over that you might not have to do anything to the crossover. I suggest just trying it without changes first. You don't listen very loud, so the bit of elevated output on top might work well for you. If it sounds too hot, just drop the tweeter down to tap 3 along with the squawker (yes, you can do that).

Thanks for echoing my sentiments on using the taps. Since he's using a, presumably, air core choke on the mid horn at 5K, there could be an additional 1 db resistive loss across the Altec's band. No big deal since it's so much hotter than the bass section. I'm thinking he may be happier with tap 3 instead of 4, as you suggest, unless he's over 50 and a former db freak in his 20's...............although I think thes kids with Kilowatt Subs shaking their cars, chest, eardrum's, and annoying neighbors will all be deaf by 30, so who knows.

Salt and Pepper that tweeter to taste.

[Cut-Throat]

I'm thinking he may be happier with tap 3 instead of 4, as you suggest, unless he's over 50 and a former db freak in his 20's

Age 57 and have very fine hearing. No db freak at any age!

- I figured since I am running my K-77 on tap 5, and the Midrange on tap 3 and it is sounding very balanced with these settings; that putting the B&C tweeter on tap 4 would replicate the closest to what I have now. Right?

[ClaudeJ1]

I'm thinking he may be happier with tap 3 instead of 4, as you suggest, unless he's over 50 and a former db freak in his 20's

Age 57 and have very fine hearing. No db freak at any age!

- I figured since I am running my K-77 on tap 5, and the Midrange on tap 3 and it is sounding very balanced with these settings; that putting the B&C tweeter on tap 4 would replicate the closest to what I have now. Right?

If you just use 2 wires with an alligator clip on each end, you can quickly move from one tap to the other and let your ears and REFERENCE recordings tell you where it should be rather than mine or Dean's opinions, which will be wrong for you in either case. LOL.

[Cut-Throat]

If you just use 2 wires with an alligator clip on each end, you can quickly move from one tap to the other and let your ears and REFERENCE recordings tell you where it should be rather than mine or Dean's opinions, which will be wrong for you in either case. LOL.

This morning I rigged up an alligator clip on each crossover, so that I can do exactly that.

[Cut-Throat]

This afternoon, I decided that I would play with my Alligator clip on my crossover to see if I could tell the difference between setting my Tweeter on Tap 5 or 3. This was with my K-77 Tweeter, as a 'dry run' for the B&C Tweeters that I am getting tomorrow.

What surprised me is that I could not hear much of difference at all, Whether it was run on Tap 5 or Tap 3 (which is -6db). Maybe a little more sibilance on the 'Sss' on Tap 5 - but not dramatic enough that I could be sure in a Blind Test.

[ClaudeJ1]

What surprised me is that I could not hear much of difference at all, Whether it was run on Tap 5 or Tap 3 (which is -6db). Maybe a little more sibilance on the 'Sss' on Tap 5 - but not dramatic enough that I could be sure in a Blind Test.

If you are running T2A's, according to Al Klappenberger's chart from a while back, the T2A's taps are cut in HALF by an 8 ohm load. IOW, the steps go down in 1 1/2 db step rather than 3 db steps, so you would have to go to Tap #1 to get -6 db.

Of course, if you do this, you may have to use a value between 2 and 1 microFarad cap to keep the same Xover point, since the impedance changes and the Xover point gets lower in frequency as the intensity drops. But I suspect you will end up on tap 3 or even 2 worst case (-4.5 db).

Got my 3 tweeters, horns, and other parts this morning, but I'm probably closer than you (Ohio to Mich).

[Cut-Throat]

Well, I don't know. But here is a Chart from Klipsch.

[djk]

"the T2A's taps are cut in HALF by an 8 ohm load. IOW, the steps go down in 1 1/2 db step rather than 3 db steps, "

That makes no sense at all.

[ClaudeJ1]

"the T2A's taps are cut in HALF by an 8 ohm load. IOW, the steps go down in 1 1/2 db step rather than 3 db steps, "

That makes no sense at all.

It didn't to me at first either, but Al Klappenberger wrote it and I got from somewhere in here.I always thought that it was merely a 3 db shift between 8 and 16 ohms on an autoformer, since it's Voltage Squared divided by impedance of driver.

T2aAlK.pdf

[ClaudeJ1]

Well, I don't know. But here is a Chart from Klipsch.

If you look at Tap "3," it's in quotes for a reason. If if was a true -3 db position, the voltage on the chart would be 7.1, but it's not, it's 6.80, which is customized for the Klipschorn/LaScala's K400 with K55V. It's about -3 1/3 db, so it's and "odd Duck" value custom made for Klipsch.

Even though the evidence is plainly visible, everyone has ignored it.

This is why I much preferred spending the money and buying Bob Crites Auto former with the 1 db taps.............it's a much better tool for guys who want to use other drivers and horns that need various levels of attenuation and are NOT a fit for the "3" tap designed specifically for only one Mid-horn and not any other. It doesn't help Klipsch's business to tell you otherwise. So we all are flailing about with our various levels of ignorance and doing "engineering" without the benefit of all the tools.......................but it is fun!!

So, if your are NOT going to use a K55/K401 or K400 combo (or L-pad/Resistors), I highly recommend the Crites 3636 as a superior product to do this type of work.

Here's a quote from Bob's site, www.critesspeakers.com:

"Our model 3636 autotransformer can replace any of the above
autotransformers. The model 3636 can attenuate any value between -1
and -12db. It is a higher quality unit than the originals with a
heavier coil and core. This autotransformer was developed by Universal
Transformer to our specs. "

I bought a pair of these and they truly are a superior autoformer.

[Cut-Throat]

So, if your are NOT going to use a K55/K401 or K400 combo (or L-pad/Resistors), I highly recommend the Crites 3636 as a superior product to do this type of work.

Here's a quote from Bob's site, www.critesspeakers.com:

"Our model 3636 autotransformer can replace any of the above
autotransformers. The model 3636 can attenuate any value between -1
and -12db. It is a higher quality unit than the originals with a
heavier coil and core. This autotransformer was developed by Universal
Transformer to our specs. "

I bought a pair of these and they truly are a superior autoformer.

Well, I also bought a pair of 3636 from Bob Crites and that is what I have been using and commenting about. And when he says "Our model 3636 autotransformer can replace any of the above
autotransformers", I thought that meant it had similar specs too.

[Cut-Throat]

Well, I got my tweeters today and have been listening to them for the past several hours and I am not sure what I think. First off they did not come with any bolts to bolt the driver to the horn. So I just hooked it up without the horn and I liked what I heard. So, I rushed off to the hardware store to get some bolts. Turns out that they are metric, I get home and install the horn and it sounds OK, but I'm not sure it sounds any different than my other tweeters.

Then I unhook the horns from both tweeters and I seem to prefer it better this way. Not evough to say that it is better than my K-77s but it seems better than the B&Cs with the Horn Attached. My listening room is 22 feet by 30 feet and I have the Khorn/Altecs on the 22 foot wall and I sit about 14 feet back from the speakers.

I might keep them as they certainly sound OK, but I'd have to make new tweeter Frames for them and I have really nice Oak Frames for my K-77s, so I am not sure what I'm going to do at this point.

[ClaudeJ1]

Well, I got my tweeters today and have been listening to them for the past several hours and I am not sure what I think. First off they did not come with any bolts to bolt the driver to the horn. So I just hooked it up without the horn and I liked what I heard. So, I rushed off to the hardware store to get some bolts. Turns out that they are metric, I get home and install the horn and it sounds OK, but I'm not sure it sounds any different than my other tweeters.

Then I unhook the horns from both tweeters and I seem to prefer it better this way. Not evough to say that it is better than my K-77s but it seems better than the B&Cs with the Horn Attached. My listening room is 22 feet by 30 feet and I have the Khorn/Altecs on the 22 foot wall and I sit about 14 feet back from the speakers.

I might keep them as they certainly sound OK, but I'd have to make new tweeter Frames for them and I have really nice Oak Frames for my K-77s, so I am not sure what I'm going to do at this point.

I was a little miffed that they didn't put any bolts in there also,
but it only cost me a few buck for #10-32 hardware which worked
perfectly. Maybe they are metric, but this worked perfectly.

What tap did you end up using?

In
my case, the matched up to my mid horns perfectly, which are 112 db
efficiency padded down about -4 db.These tweeters sound better then my
JBL's which totally blew away my K77's, even with new capacitors. So,
I'm really surprised at your reaction. I got my other 3 yesterday, So
I'm up to 5 and loving it.

Make sure you get 3/4" length on the bolts, with flat and lock washers. Mine hex head. You need a good seal between the horn and the felt pad. Sound to me like you need more time to tweak and listen. Tomorrow's another day.

[Cut-Throat]

I was a little miffed that they didn't put any bolts in there also,
but it only cost me a few buck for #10-32 hardware which worked
perfectly. Maybe they are metric, but this worked perfectly.

What tap did you end up using?

In
my case, the matched up to my mid horns perfectly, which are 112 db
efficiency padded down about -4 db.These tweeters sound better then my
JBL's which totally blew away my K77's, even with new capacitors. So,
I'm really surprised at your reaction. I got my other 3 yesterday, So
I'm up to 5 and loving it

I found that Tap 4 was just about right. Tap 5 was a tad too bright. I don't think I could have picked out either tweeter in a Blind Test in my listening room. I'll sleep on it for a few days. Thanks for your help!

[ClaudeJ1]

I found that Tap 4 was just about right. Tap 5 was a tad too bright. I don't think I could have picked out either tweeter in a Blind Test in my listening room. I'll sleep on it for a few days. Thanks for your help!

One more thing, as I just got done listening to mine...........I'm using a 3.3 uF cap for a 6Khz Xover point at full on. If you were to do it full on, and wired direct to the input I'm not going through a 13 uF midrange cap, like you are, which, I'm sure has some interactive effect.

You would need 4 uF. So from tap 4, I guess you need about a 2 uF, but you may want to try a 3 uF to see if you like it better.

Not sure where your mids are rolling off, since you are on tap 3. Assuming your driver is 16 ohms, putting a 15 ohm resistor in parallel brings it down to 8 ohms, but running off tap 3 brings it up to 32 ohms impedance (or 16 again, if you believe that Al K's chart was error free for an 8 ohm load before you run off tap 3).Standard first order calculator calls for a 0.500 mH at 16 ohms and 1.02 mH at 32 ohms, so either way, your 0.25 mH inductor rolls off pretty high, like between 10-20 Khz.and is too small of a value.

since that horn probably goes out to 10K before rolling off, you may be just introducing a peak between 5-10 Khz. I don't know. Did you ever measure anything? Where did you get your Xover values for the Altec stuff?

Also, did your try rotating the tweeter 90 degrees? IOW, are the little lines on the plastic front up and down or side to side? You could have the wrong dispersion pattern going on from where you sit. Just some thoughts........

[Marvel]

Here is the chart Dean had posted before. The 3619 is the same as the T2A, except the 3619 has more taps.

Claude, you were commenting on tap"3" in quotes, but it is tap 4 with the "3" db tap. Am I confused?

Bruce

[ClaudeJ1]

Claude, you were commenting on tap"3" in quotes, but it is tap 4 with the "3" db tap. Am I confused?

You are correct. I was referring to tap 4 on the Klipsch T2A as having the "3" in quotes, it's not -3 db according to the voltages, but everyone assumes it is.........besides, what's 1/3 of a db among friends anyhow? LOL.

The chart you posted is most certainly mis-labeled.............it's not for "dummies"

The only one that makes sense is the last one and it doesn't show where the common is.

THE most confusing thing to me is the chart I posted that was done by Al K concerning the incremental reductions of the taps on a T2A being only 1.5 db steps with 8 ohms, vs. being 3 db steps with 16 ohm loads with the asme T2A autoformer. That had to be an error on his part, right? No one commented on that one.

[Marvel]

It actually makes sense to me (the autoformers for dummies chart), but what do I know. The attached was posted by Al, concerning the T2. I think it is the one you mention.

Bruce

T2A_taps.pdf

[djk]

"That had to be an error on his part, right? No one commented on that one. "

I did.

The autoformer works by reducing the turns ratio. The turns ratio doesn't change for 8 or 16 ohm loads, so the dB of attenuation doesn't either.