Deang Posted January 29, 2002 Share Posted January 29, 2002 I'm going to pick one up for $1000 or a little more my choices are as follows: Adcom 5802 Aragon 8008ST NAD S200 any opinions? other choices ? tubes just don't get it for HT ------------------ deanG This message has been edited by deang on 01-29-2002 at 07:55 PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Posted January 29, 2002 Share Posted January 29, 2002 Finding a quality amp, or any part of the front-end, for that matter is tricky with the ultra-efficient horns. The newer models are better, but still not easy to mate. The reason is that Klipsch speakers are very revealing of harshness and grunge in the upstream line. Having heard the dangerous Harmon-Kardon Citation 16 years ago and the massive Pass Labs X250 recently on Klipsch horns, I can tell that throwing money or size at the problem will not create a musical solution. There are two SS amps that I would like to hear. For an SS amp uniquely suited to big old horns, try the Monarchy Audio Zero Feedback Amplifier Model SM-70 at http://www.monarchyaudio.com/ with 25 Watts RMS on 8 Ohms, distortion below 0.01% and output MOSFETS. They come with high recommendations on the Klipsch BBS, which should count for a lot more than other forums, since these guys live with super-efficient speakers. Check them out, using a single amp or mono-blocks they are giant killers, especially when run in balanced mode. These are found used for about $400. "This system uses high-efficiency Klipsch Cornwall speakers, a CAL Icon II CD player, a Creek OBH-12 passive pre-amp and a Music Reference RM-10 amplifier (I know -- push-pull). The funny thing about this little experiment was that my good friend Paul had purchased the RM-10 tube amp because he had tried a few decent transistor designs in this system and found all of them to be irritating in extended listening sessions. He felt that the tube amp painted a nicer harmonic sound-scape and was much more listen-able over the long haul. After I inserted the Monarchy SM-70 into his system, Paul found out, to his surprise, that it was the tube amplifier that sounded harsh by comparison. On loud peaks of vocal works, for example, the sound was decidedly hard and biting when compared to that of the SM-70, which maintained its composure, sounding almost relaxed. We found that we could play the system much louder without fatigue simply because the Monarchy amp wasnt hurting our ears. Additionally, the SM-70 had more extended and better-controlled bass and a wider soundstage. Moreover, the instrumental outlines were much clearer and better focused. Comprehension of lyrics and inner detailing were definitely improved too." But this reviewer thought they had too much hum for super-sensitive speakers: http://www.audioxpress.com/reviews/media/AX901GG.pdf The second SS amp I would like to hear is the The Audio Source Amp One/A. It is said to sound exactly the same ($ensible Sound, Nov/Dec 01, #88) for 1/2 the price as the very well regarded Bryston 3B-ST. The 3B-ST is a "can't miss" amp. It is known to deliver AMAZING bass and have a nice midrange with excellent transparency. The $300 amp performs exactly the same as the Bryston and line level comparisons could find no difference between the two They "sounded identical to each other." The 4B-ST is a better amp but those come in around $1500 used. But these are "can't miss" choices if you want solid state. The B-60 Integrated is also good. This little unit can be had around $900 or so. The "ST" series is an improvement over the standard and worth the extra money. PS. I think the sub-woofer adds as much to cable movies as the amp does, the signal does not seem good enough to me for any quality amp, tube or otherwise ... ------------------ Colin's Music System Cornwall 1s & Klipsch subs; lights out & tubes glowing! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted January 29, 2002 Author Share Posted January 29, 2002 As usual Colin you come through with a really great post. Aren't we supposed to buy amps buy the pound - or is that a bunch of B.S. The 3bst only weighs 22 lbs. By contrast the B&K 2140, which has roughly the same wattage - weighs 8 lbs. more. Sure wish I knew more about amps. I guess you get what you pay for ------------------ deanG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T2K Posted January 30, 2002 Share Posted January 30, 2002 Another choice: boa's 'slightly used' Acurus 200X5 shipped for less than $1000! (You can use any extra channels to jump start your car on cold winter mornings.) Keith Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted January 30, 2002 Share Posted January 30, 2002 I second Colin's suggestion of the Monarchy Audio SM-70... but I would opt for the Pro version which seems to get slightly better press. It uses Zero Feedback and is all Class A...two positives for horns. It does have more power than you would even need... It has double the MOSFETS of the SM-70 and more PS filter capacitance. Wish they would do away with the slightlyt tacky handles...but it's a solid as hell amp. It's a shade under 1000 at $980 or so. I have seen them used however.... Keep an eye out on Audiogon. The Adcom would be wasted power and would not be as sublime sounding as the Monarchy based on the circuit. The Aragon 8008 would be monster overkill as well. The only Aragon I have heard was the original Aragon 4004 which was a powerhouse and nice sounding SS amp..but it was a bit harsh at times, something that you DONT WANT for horns, even if the RF-7. By the way, you really shouldnt rule out tubes for HT either. I have hooked up tubes to my TV and run it though my two channel system for certain movies just to see. They did VERY well! My ASUSA EL-34 amp did movies great...voices are amazing! kh ps - Edster00 still has some Monarchy SM-70 monoblocks... pps- Another great used classic Class A amp is the Forte Model 4. It is 50w Class A and very nice sounding. You see it around $400 used...a great deal for an amp that was in the 1200 range. It is essentially a Threshold. This message has been edited by mobile homeless on 01-30-2002 at 01:13 AM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BenG Posted January 30, 2002 Share Posted January 30, 2002 glad to see that my amp is being recommended! it really is a jem. i auditioned some rf7's at sound world in houston, tx. dong pham was real helpfull. i dragged the sm70 to his shop, and had me a little trip to la-la land. smooth and liquidy. enjoy, -benny ------------------ Monarchy Audio SM-70 Onkyo DV-S535 Monarchy Audio Model 33 KLIPSCH HERESY II (soon) AudioQuest Slate/Diamondback Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Posted January 30, 2002 Share Posted January 30, 2002 deang, you clearly do NOT get what you pay for with amps, they are the sink hole of stereo, I have heard $99 Waves give more musical power to big old horns than $6000 Pass Labs SS monsters, tubes do a lot of things wrong, but they get the crucial mid-range more right than SS - also, the article you are referring to is by Nelson Pass on his site, where he suggests that true class A amps should weight as much as their power rating, sure enough my Pioneer M-22, which peaks at 60 watts per channel, does indeed weigh 60 pounds! ------------------ Colin's Music System Cornwall 1s & Klipsch subs; lights out & tubes glowing! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rowooo Posted January 30, 2002 Share Posted January 30, 2002 Adcom 5500! Check it out.....And no I didn't write that just to get Mobile fired up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted January 30, 2002 Author Share Posted January 30, 2002 Sorry, I just can't deal with the Monarchy's asthetics. It's also kind of wimpy at 25 wpc. Colin's post got me digging and I found it impossible to find a bad word about the Bryston 3B-ST. Then God help me I started thinking about Ears. So...I just bought a 3B-ST at AudiogoN for $1000 even. I'll mate her with my Anthem tube preamp and see what happens. ------------------ deanG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted January 30, 2002 Share Posted January 30, 2002 For a few hundred more you could have had the 4B-ST...oh well. Glad you settled on something. Still, I can tell you the feeling of woe... OK, maybe that is an overstatement... But seriously, this IDEA of WATTS is SO misunderstood... and it is about the last thing one should go by in chosing an amp (to a certain point, obviously). I cant believe in a high efficiency forum of sorts we still have to go into this watts discussion. It is so abused .... When will we understand that when dealing with speakers with sensitivity in the upper 90s and lower 100s, the idea of 150watts is almost absurd and, in effect, shooting yourself in the foot as the majority of listening will be done in an area where your powerhouse behemoth with be completely ill-suited. So much of the beauty of the Klipsch is the fact that the sensitivity allows you to go with lower wattage, simpler amplification devices with less to MUCK the sound such as multiple transistors, tubes, circuit traces, gooblede****. LESS IS MORE here, my audio loons! The last time I sat for a few hours and listened to a Bryston 4B-ST, it was with the current owner.... who had just plopped down another $1200 to get a pair of Wright Sound 3.5 monoblocks, which at a whopping 3.5 watts per channel, were aproximately 246 watts per channel LESS THAN HIS $2300 Bryston 4B-ST! Which sounded better? The Wright Sound 3.5 simply blew the Bryston 4B-ST away in all things important. I just made more music. And the final kicker? The vintage EICO HF-81 actually made more music! If we had to really gauge which amps were more musically satisfying, the Wrights came in first, followed by the EICO, then the $2300 Bryston 4B-ST ....at many times the power rating. And guess what? This was actually via 90dB sensitive speakers!!! Not even some vintage Klipsch at 100dB! The average lock jaw would SCOFF at the notion of a 14w push pull tube amp sounding more true to life than a 250w, high-end Bryston, which is indeed a damn fine solid state amp, better many, many other SS designs. Still, some love solid state. I sold my 200w B&K Sonata Monoblocks (the top B&K amp made) after I got the EICO HF-81. I just couldnt listen to the damn thing in the same way... It just didnt have the life...the air...and magic harmonic richness....the transparency of the utterly simple tubes, easily the most linear output device there is. ------------------ Phono Linn LP-12 Vahalla / Linn Basic Plus / Sumiko Blue Point CD Player Rega Planet Preamp Cary Audio SLP-70 w/Phono Modified Amplifier Welborne Labs 2A3 Moondog Monoblocks Cable DIYCable Superlative / Twisted Cross Connect Speaker 1977 Klipsch Cornwall I w/Alnico & Type B Crossover system one online / alternate components / Asylum Listing f>s> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edster00 Posted January 30, 2002 Share Posted January 30, 2002 deang, I agree with you about the asthetics of the Monarchy SM-70 Pro. That is one of the main reasons I opted for the regular SM-70 rather than the Pro. I was also looking for lower power. I was so taken with the SM-70 I eventually bought a second one so I could monoblock them and run them in balanced mode. I am thoroughly happy with these amps for my SS 2 channel needs. I now have the option of Khorns with the Moondogs and a tube preamp (my favorite), the Monarchy's monoblocked with a tube preamp, and the Monarchy's monoblocked and balanced via the Monarchy Model 33 DAC/Line stage. I am in 2 channel audio heaven. ------------------ Ed W Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted January 30, 2002 Share Posted January 30, 2002 I will make a bet that if anyone was truly interested, Monarchy Audio would gladly sell you the SM-70 face plate in place of the SM-70 Pro plate. The Pro actually has a thicker front plate so it would be more to their advantage, and it would surely look better. Now if they would only reduce the size of their logo by half! Phono Linn LP-12 Vahalla / Linn Basic Plus / Sumiko Blue Point CD Player Rega Planet Preamp Cary Audio SLP-70 w/Phono Modified Amplifier Welborne Labs 2A3 Moondog Monoblocks Cable DIYCable Superlative / Twisted Cross Connect Speaker 1977 Klipsch Cornwall I w/Alnico & Type B Crossover system one online / alternate components / Asylum Listing f>s> This message has been edited by mobile homeless on 01-30-2002 at 07:05 PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manuel Delaflor Posted January 30, 2002 Share Posted January 30, 2002 quote: Originally posted by mobile homeless: The vintage EICO HF-81 actually made more music! If we had to really gauge which amps were more musically satisfying, the Wrights came in first, followed by the EICO, then the $2300 Bryston 4B-ST .... You are pretty eloquent regarding this amp. Im actually looking for one just to hear how it sounds! Any hints on where to buy one other than Ebay? I have a brother living in New York, and I bet there could be a store around there carring the EICO, am I right? or what do you suggest. Im willing to bet that this EICO will drive my Heresy's with easy, and very probably anihilating my audio experience with my trusty 30wpc Technics "new class A" amplfier! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted January 30, 2002 Author Share Posted January 30, 2002 Mobile It is odd that you would center your whole post around the point of less being more and at the same time say for a few hundred more I could have had a 4B-ST. The 3B-ST is 120 watts, which I am sure you will agree is more than enough. Actually, 4B-ST's are going for roughly $1500 - which is actually $500 more than I spent (or was willing to spend). It would have actually been a waste for me to spend an extra $500 for power I really don't need. Now that I got that out of the way - I can tell you without any doubt that if you knew my music tastes and my listening habits - the last thing in the world you would recommend to me would be 25 wpc I'm no expert - but it seems to me that even an RF7 could benefit by being driven by an amplifier that has plenty of reserve power. ------------------ deanG This message has been edited by deang on 01-30-2002 at 08:58 PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LNEtubaPLYR Posted January 30, 2002 Share Posted January 30, 2002 im gonna get shot down for this fire hazard. but go for the Carver Cube! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manuel Delaflor Posted January 30, 2002 Share Posted January 30, 2002 quote: Originally posted by deang: I'm no expert - but it seems to me that even an RF7 could benefit by being driven by an amplifier that has plenty of reserve power. I think theears does exactly this, he drives his RF7 with a Bryston (I don't remember the model) and he say this do wonders for the speakers. I have personally tested the 3B-ST the amount of power is just HUGE, and it was coupled with a set of NHT's with far less sensitivity than any Klipsch. The thing that was more apparent to me is the massive amouts of bass that amplifier is able to put, even with the 8 inch drivers on the NHT's. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted January 30, 2002 Share Posted January 30, 2002 No, I dont know your musical taste but I do know what I listen to. And based on that, was extrapolating that the Monarchy Audio Pro version of the ST-70 would probably be more than enough. I listen to music that is probably harder and more challenging sonically than most, except I dont need stygian, disco level bass which CAN tax an amplifier. I probably listen to music at live listening levels more than most on here; I just dont talk about it that much (but I have mentioned it). The reason why I mentioned the 4B-ST over the 3B-ST is that it has received better press in general and I have heard the 4B-ST at length. Having never heard the 3B-ST, but having READ about it, I just suggested you could have gone the 4B route with the price getting up there already for the 3B. The EARS is extremely into BASS and more BASS. He also shops by way of MORE WATTS = MORE SOUND = MORE MUSIC which I have found to be anything but true. Alas, each to his own. The EARS has certainly thrown a lot of ducats into his amplification. You will be happy to know that the Bryston, at least the 4B-ST, does bass about as well as the normal Krells. Is that saying a lot? Well, I happen to believe the bass can be done better than these amplifiers, at least tone-wise. Still, and this seems to be a view not shared by many, there is a very REAL and tangible difference between HIFI sound and music. HIFI spectacular, of the kind that EARS et al are shooting for seems to my EARS to have very little to do with the actual music. In a very real sense, it robs the music of the essence of performance and it gives it a shined up, glossy, tactile, interpretation that can be packaged and wrapped in an audiophile approved container. This HIFI sound is what many aim for but after living there a while, I found nothing of real substance... The music just seems more sterile to me, the presentation more dry. Sometimes I get carried away and try to push this vision on others that are happy there. Yeah, I should probably keep my jaws from a clacking and my fingers from typing. Look, I have done it again and wasted another 10 minutes and valuable bandwidth. In the end, it is what makes you moved by the music. Actually, the 3B-ST will probably float your boat in grand way - The Byston makes a CLEAN and competent machine. Phono Linn LP-12 Vahalla / Linn Basic Plus / Sumiko Blue Point CD Player Rega Planet Preamp Cary Audio SLP-70 w/Phono Modified Amplifier Welborne Labs 2A3 Moondog Monoblocks Cable DIYCable Superlative / Twisted Cross Connect Speaker 1977 Klipsch Cornwall I w/Alnico & Type B Crossover system one online / alternate components / Asylum Listing f>s> This message has been edited by mobile homeless on 01-30-2002 at 11:43 PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.