Electrical question (house wiring)

[Coytee]

I'm under the (perhaps incorrect) understanding that sometimes, ground loop issues can be caused when you have different components plugged into different recepticals (circuits) on the wall. Something about different ground paths or the like?

If that is true... actually....even if that is NOT true.... is the next idea a stupid idea (or even agaisnt code?)

If you are wiring a room with let's say, 3 different outlets where your stereo stuff might be.... and if you had EACH outlet on its own circuitbreaker. Each outlet would have its own ground wire going back to the breaker box BUT if you had something plugged into outlet #1 and outlet #2 then those two items wouldn't see a common ground UNTIL the wires met back at the breaker box, right?

So.... and to make this example even MORE dramatic.... let's suppose that the 3 outlets, tied to their own breaker switches are on different walls (so you could put an amplifier AT the speaker instead of running a mile of speaker wire)

So, you have outlet 1 on the left wall, outlet 2 on the back wall and outlet 3 on the right wall.

Would there be any merit in running a ground wire from outlet 1 to 2 to 3 in addition to the existing ground wire that goes from the outlets to the panel?

In other words, you'd have an octapus layout of wires with the body being the breaker panel however, each tip of each arm would also have a ground connection to each other, like a ferris wheel.

Boy, I hope I didn't butcher that too much.

Any merit in that or is that creating even MORE issues?

[Don Richard]

As long as all of the receptacles are grounded within the same breaker panel there should be few noise issues due to ground loops. However, the following is the preferred way to deliver power to audio, computers, medical, and other sensitive equipment:

http://www.peavey.com/support/technotes/soundsystems/acpowerdist.cfm

[TNRabbit]

You can get ground hum issues from your NEIGHBOR if there is over a certain amount of resistance in your ground. Make sure your ground wire outside your electrical box is bolted firmly to the rebar rod in the ground (which should be at least 6 feet). Also, it never hurts to check any grounding screws in the electrical box periodically. Heating/cooling over time causes bad contacts.

[LarryC]

Like this, Gary? http://www.equitech.com/ Putting that into my house, at least, seemed to be quite an undertaking, and I chose not to do it.

Richard, it might be that tracking down a specific problem is the best approach, and one easy method is to use a cheater plug on one or more components as needed to solve the problem. I had two monobloc SS amplifiers, one of which hummed very loudly no matter what I did to the house wiring. It was taken care of by floating one amp's power cord at the receptacle -- as recommended by the amp manufacturer.

In that case, a ground loop may have been formed somehow by the combination of separate monobloc power cords and the parallel interconnect grounding to the amps. As TNR said, it seems to be rare, as I've never experienced it except in that case. However, I have had to use a "Magic Splitter" to defeat hum/buzz when trying to hook cable TV plus an outside antenna to both my TV and my audio system.

[TNRabbit]

Like this, Gary? http://www.equitech.com/ Putting that into my house, at least, seemed to be quite an undertaking, and I chose not to do it.

Richard, it might be that tracking down a specific problem is the best approach, and one easy method is to use a cheater plug on one or more components as needed to solve the problem. I had two monobloc SS amplifiers, one of which hummed very loudly no matter what I did to the house wiring. It was taken care of by floating one amp's power cord at the receptacle -- as recommended by the amp manufacturer.

In that case, a ground loop may have been formed somehow by the combination of separate monobloc power cords and the parallel interconnect grounding to the amps. As TNR said, it seems to be rare, as I've never experienced it except in that case. However, I have had to use a "Magic Splitter" to defeat hum/buzz when trying to hook cable TV plus an outside antenna to both my TV and my audio system.

Not exactly what I was talking about...I was referring to getting ground issues from down the power line (neighbors) due to not having your grounding rod connected securely. Also. connections within your power box can lose contact over time.

HOWEVER, PS Audio makes a Power Station that is REALLY good...

[LarryC]

Not exactly what I was talking about...I was referring to getting ground issues from down the power line (neighbors) due to not having your grounding rod connected securely.

I was referring to your Peavey link.

[TNRabbit]

As long as all of the receptacles are grounded within the same breaker panel there should be few noise issues due to ground loops. However, the following is the preferred way to deliver power to audio, computers, medical, and other sensitive equipment:

http://www.peavey.com/support/technotes/soundsystems/acpowerdist.cfm

Actually, that was by ^

[LarryC]

OOps, lost track, should'a said "like this, Don?"... Oh, well....

[Guest " "]

"I'm under the (perhaps incorrect) understanding that sometimes, ground loop issues can be caused when you have different components plugged into different recepticals (circuits) on the wall. Something about different ground paths or the like?"

correct

"If you are wiring a room with let's say, 3 different outlets where your stereo stuff might be.... and if you had EACH outlet on its own circuitbreaker. Each outlet would have its own ground wire going back to the breaker box BUT if you had something plugged into outlet #1 and outlet #2 then those two items wouldn't see a common ground UNTIL the wires met back at the breaker box, right?"

correct

So.... and to make this example even MORE dramatic.... let's suppose that the 3 outlets, tied to their own breaker switches are on different walls (so you could put an amplifier AT the speaker instead of running a mile of speaker wire) So, you have outlet 1 on the left wall, outlet 2 on the back wall and outlet 3 on the right wall. Would there be any merit in running a ground wire from outlet 1 to 2 to 3 in addition to the existing ground wire that goes from the outlets to the panel?

no...since the effect that cause ground loops involves the differences of wire lenth relative to ground...there would be no improvement by relocating the wires involved in the actual differences to a common ground....the differences would still be there.

The best bet is to put in a single large wire run for you gear and connect everything to that run.

[mark1101]

Richard, you are wiring a basement correct? Why not just wire it conventionally with several breakers being used BUT make them all GFIs. If you do that then you can safely use cheater plugs and plug parts of your system into other outlets on different breakers and wind up with no noise and still have full safety. It works, it's safe, it's simple, and it is actually code where I live (all basement, garage, outdoor, bathroom, kitchen, master bedroom outlets must be GFI).

[dtel]

When you look in your electrical box does the white/neutral wires connect to the same bar as the bare/ground wires ?

Older boxes connected both wires to the same place, the new boxes have separate places for each with a bar that you can leave in place or remove (new code) which separates the white and ground, separated is much better. IMO

When the neutral and grounds are on a common bar you can pick up electrical noise much easier from around the house, and if something is not wired correctly you can actually pick up some small amount of current through the neutral wire (white).

[DrWho]

GFCI is the way to go, and then you just make sure there is only one ground point back to the breaker...

The important part about "Ground LOOPS" is the loop part....if your loop was tiny, then you wouldn't have any noise issues. Think coax cables for a perfect example (super tiny loop area between the shield and the conductor). If you break the loop altogether, then you can never have a ground loop. GFCI's allow you to safely break the loop.

Just outta curiousity....are you hiring an electrician to sort out all these issues for you?

[Coytee]

Just outta curiousity....are you hiring an electrician to sort out all these issues for you?

My brother in law is an electrician...so he'll be doing the actual hooking up (after I pull the wires). Since I know he won't charge me for any of this, I'm trying to do as much as I can myself, to spare him as much effort as I can.

Everyone can sleep knowing that I'm not going to be grabbing some bare "copper things" inside my open panel!! [li]

[dtel]

I would bet the wife has updated the life insurance between the electrical stuff and your pet BOMB !

[JJkizak]

dtel:

Both ground bars in the distribution boxes are grounded with one another with a bar underneath. All the white wires hooked to one bar and all the green wires hooked to the other just look nicer. Hanging those nuetrals in the air is nothing but trouble. The GFI's need the separate wire for proper operation even though the wire hooks to the same bar. My experience was with switching neutrals in 500 kw 3 phase systems with ungrounded supply neutrals to remove ground loops in huge electrical distribution systems with auto-transfer shedding breakers with dual buss systems. The ground loops in these systems caused 250kw transients in the .04 millisecond during the actual transfer of essential shedding equipment which then caused everything to dump off line. When the electrical inspector plugs his little dingus into the outlet and sees no ground he will start to pull your hair out from the roots and put red tags on everything in the house.

JJK

[Coytee]

he will start to pull your hair out from the roots

Then Dtel has nothing to worry about... []

[DrWho]

do as much as I can myself, to spare him as much effort as I can.

Everyone can sleep knowing that I'm not going to be grabbing some bare "copper things" inside my open panel!!

Crap, I was banking on you being a rebel... []

[dtel]

dtel:

Both ground bars in the distribution boxes are grounded with one another with a bar underneath. All the white wires hooked to one bar and all the green wires hooked to the other just look nicer. Hanging those nuetrals in the air is nothing but trouble. The GFI's need the separate wire for proper operation even though the wire hooks to the same bar. My experience was with switching neutrals in 500 kw 3 phase systems with ungrounded supply neutrals to remove ground loops in huge electrical distribution systems with auto-transfer shedding breakers with dual buss systems. The ground loops in these systems caused 250kw transients in the .04 millisecond during the actual transfer of essential shedding equipment which then caused everything to dump off line. When the electrical inspector plugs his little dingus into the outlet and sees no ground he will start to pull your hair out from the roots and put red tags on everything in the house.

JJK

This is what I was talking about, if all commons are on a bar not connected to the ground how could this hurt, everything in a house should have a ground connected. I couldn't find the link I used a few months ago when one of the Klipsch engineers was asking about separating them, it was a pdf of the inside of a load canter with instructions on removing the bar that connects both strips, but I did find this, kind of the general idea.

http://www.geindustrial.com/publibrary/checkout/Application%20and%20Technical%7CDET437%7Cgeneric

[dtel]

I found the page where we were talking about this.

http://forums.klipsch.com/blogs/andyw/archive/2007/11/09/hum-and-buzz-part-i.aspx

And the link.

http://www.geindustrial.com/publibrary/pubLibResult.jsp?famId=19&prdTypeId=147&subTypeId=226&pubType=Installation%20and%20Instruction&src=cwc