Integrated vs. Monoblock

[Clipped and Shorn]

I am gradually catching on to the terminology and have deduced that "Integrated" must mean that both channels are on the same amp chasis wheareas monoblocks are on two seperate {what is the plural of chasis ?} . Why does one choose one over the other? What are the consequent differences audio wise?

Is there an online glossary or handbook of basic definitions for all this audiophile terminology including common abbreviations. I am, of course, learning fast as I peruse the posts on this forum, but had to have fini set me straight about the DIY brand of products, I thought it was one of the biggest companies. duh.

-Kept and Shelved

[Ray Garrison]

There are books available that provide a glossary of terms. Check Amazon for books by Robert Harley, and it'll point out others to you as well.

Quick answer to your question:

An amplifier is what "drives" the speakers. A basic, no frills thingie that amplifies a signal and sends the amplified signal to the speakers is called a Power Amplifier, or usually just Amplifier for short. When someone says they have an amplifier, this is what they're typically talking about. A power amplifier has (usually) no controls of any sort other than a power switch. That means you cannot adjust the volume - it'll take whatever signal it's fed, and just amplify it to its maximum capability and send it off to the speakers. This usually results in way too much volume, particularly with Klipsch speakers. You need some way to turn the volume down. Also, a power amplifier has one set of inputs. If you want to connect, say, a CD player and a VCR to your amp, you'd have to disconnect one and then reconnect the other every time you wanted to switch inputs.

So, you put a box in front of the amplifier that allows you to switch amoung multiple inputs, and control the volume. This is a "preamplifier", or pre-amp for short. You plug your CD player, VCR, tape deck, tuner, etc. into the preamp, then connect the output from the preamp to the amp. The preamp selects which device you're listening to, and allows you to adjust the volume. The preamp may also provide other features, such as balance control (making one channel louder than the other, in case you sit closer to one speaker than the other, or the room makes one speaker sound louder than the other, or the CD is recorded with one channel louder than the other, whatever), tone controls (make the bass or treble louder or softer) and any number of other features.

If you take a preamplifier, a power amplifier and put them together in one box, you get an "integrated" amplifier. This has economies in that both devices share a common enclosure, and usually a common power supply, one box costs less to ship to the dealer than two boxes, you don't have to worry about cables to connect them together, the manufacturer can optimise the preamp and power amp sections to work optimally (with separate preamp and amp, you don't know whose brand of component your product might be used with), there's a host of savings. Downside - the preamp is dealing with low level signals (a few millivolts, usually), and the power amp is dealing with high level signals (maybe hundreds of watts), and shielding the low level signals from the high level is not easy. Separate preamps and power amps can, theoretically, be better optimised for their functions.

A "monoblock" is a power amp that has only one channel. Most power amps are stereo devices - two channels in one box. By separating the two channels into two different boxes, you drive up the costs ( ), and can better isolate what the right channel is doing from what the left channel is doing.

Note that building an integrated monoblock amplifier would be a bit difficult...

A receiver is an integrated amp that also has a tuner thrown in for good measure.

------------------

Music is art

Audio is engineering

Ray's Music System

[TheEAR]

Great clarification Ray

One more popular thing is the dual mono design,its two separate mono amps(PSU and output stage)in one box.

You keep the bonus of the true monoblock design under one roof.

Many high-end brands use this design.

TheEAR(s) Now theears

[WMcD]

It is a complicated march of technology and nomeclature. I'll explain it backwards in the signal path.

All our systems have had a series of amplifiers feeding each other along the line. While somewhat inaccurate, just consider there as being two in a one channel monoaural system. One feeding the other.

The last metal box in the line was called an amplifier. It poweres the speakers. Here there are descriptions of "power". It was e.g. a 30 watt amplifier.

The amplifer before the power amplifier was called a pre amplifier. In fact this general term for a pre amp is a box which allowed for various inputs. One input was a "tuner" radio. Another input was from a phonograph. It had the volume control and tone controls for bass and treble, also. These days we have CD inputs, etc.

Going back to the phonograph, if it had a magnetic cartridge, it was necessary to have an amplifier between the magnetic cartidge and the pre amp. That was a phono amp in its own box.

So, going from the magnetic cartridge there was a phono amp, a pre amp control center, (also with an input from the tuner) a switch to choose between the two, and volume control. This fed the "power amplifier".

Manufacturers put the "tuner" into the pre amp box. That is called a "receiver". A receiver still has all the switching choices and volume control, and bass and treble controls, but no power amplifier.

An integrated amplifier put the power amplifier into that box too. The pre amp and power amp were integrated together. The phono amp got into it also sometimes.

Then came stereo. The term in Greek means something like solid or three dimensional. It was, however, just a matter of having two channels of audio.

All of the above boxes could be had in two channel stereo. Stereo phono amp, stereo preamp or receiver, stereo tuners. And, at the end . . . a stereo power amplifier, sometimes. The complexity of two channel compelled putting twin units on the same chassis of each building block. E.g. it made sense to be able to have one control center which switched left and right at the same time between the phono and tuner, and volume control.

However, the power amplifer was a hold out. One school of thought is that it is better to have the individual power amps, one for left the other for right, on separate chassis. Hence the term mono blocks. One justification is a suspicion that each has its own power supply, rather than, as in some 'stereo' designs, a shared power supply.

The bottom line is that "integrated amps" put the power amp on the same chassis as the pre amp. They feed each other.

The mono block power amp kept left and right channels separate.

Do mono blocks sound better than power amps on the same chassis? Some people have strong opinions. I'm not one of them.

Gil

[mobile homeless]

Gil F. Buckley....Lord. How many people is it going to take to answer the poor lad? Lordy, Ray was enough. Now ole Gil. F. Buckley III comes in....and always with the last line zinger. Ole Gil. You have to love ole Gil. I know I do. The ole Coot! Actually, he didnt really hit on all the points, nor totally summed up stereo... although some points WERE made.

Now that you have the physical differences, I'll throw in a bit more on the sonic benefits of the various units. Indeed, there are distinctions between the various designs on the whole.

One of the most important aspects of any amplifier design is the power supply. You hear it talked about all the time and for good reason. The power supply plays a large part in how a component will sound, whether it be a turntable, CD player, preamp, integrated amp, stereo amp, monoblock amp etc.

What makes separate components have an advantage right off the bat is the dedicated power supply for each component. Now, this does not guarantee good sound, but it is a positive thing on the whole. Now, the circuit and design can be dedicated to this one task, whether it be amplification or whatever.

Having a "stiff" power supply that is very well regulated and able to handle any demands on it will result in much better sonics, across the board, from bass to treble extension, to imaging, to clarity. This is why you have seen these new solid state products employing something that many top notch tube amplifiers (especially single-ended triodes) have been doing for quite some time. They are adding a choke regulated supply which further isolates the component from the wall current, smoothing it out. For a while, you were also seeing bigger and bigger filter caps for the power supply almost as large or larger than coke cans! Yet, many have come to realize that these huge caps in the power supply can slow the amp down! So various manufacturers are going to smaller caps but larger in number. Some companies, such as the idiosncratic Sakura Systems 47 Gain Labs put only one tiny cap in the power supply as they feel it makes the amp much quicker. Others feel this might seriously hamper the low end.

Regardless, having each component in a dedicated chassis allows the engineers to tailor the design to that one goal. EAch time you add another component to the box, it compromises this a bit. On the other hand, some compromises are acceptable and the trade-offs can be ok. IE..the integrated amp. If designed properly can be a great sounding device.

As for monoblocks, this carries it to the next level. The signals are now separated so they is no bleed through, but more importantly, each channel now has its own dedicated power supply. The result? Monoblocks usually offer a wider soundstage with more separation of instruments (if there in recording) as well as an increased sense of slam. On the whole, the sound feels slightly more fleshed out. You are also able to put your amps right near the speakers thus shortening the speaker cables.

Now, I have all three types of amplifiers listed above: integrated, stereo, and monoblocks. Each has positive apsects. Ulitmately, I have usually preferred monoblocks for the sense of ease and fleshed out quality of the soundstage. Still, the stereo amp is fine unit and I have had many that I love. Same for the integrated, as it saves interconnects, another loss in sound quality, and the engineer has total control of how the pramp and amp go together.

Occasionally, as EARS suggested, you will see an amp in a single chassis which is completely dual mono with two separate power supplies, one for each channel in the same chassis. However, to carry this out to the full extreme, each needs to have its own power cord. This is slightly more rare but it is seen. These amps will actually have two power cords from the one chassis resulting in a completely "dual mono" power supply. Of course, the chassis needs to be quite large or will be cramped within since both PS will be stuffed within.

Regardless, there are many many choices and design parameters to mull over. Obviously, the biggest compromise is the receiver, where the tuner, preamp, and amp reside on one chassis. Some companies, like NAD, became famous for their good sounding receivers as they actually had three separate transformers in their receivers! One cord...but at least a sep trans for each section.

In general, you lose flexibility AND sound quality with combining of components. But once again, it is an acceptable trade-off in some instances...and some gains will be made in other areas. I love my little EICO integrated!

kh

This message has been edited by mobile homeless on 02-05-2002 at 10:43 AM

[mobile homeless]

....see above edit

[Colin]

If you take a preamplifier, a power amplifier and put them together in one box, you get an "integrated" amplifier. If you add a FM/AM tuner to the mix, you get what is called a receiver.

A few receivers will add even more features. Some take the simple bass and treble control knobs one step further - they add in the sound shaping controls of an equalizer (EQ) or they will add in other sound processing features too.

Digital sound processing for the DVD or CD is often added to the expensive models. And of course multiple channels too, but that is just another way of saying they have 5 or 6 power amplifiers, all on the same chasis -

lets us know what ever terms you are having trouble with and at least six of us will answer with confusing responses! Now, isn't this fun?

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Colin's Music System Cornwall 1s & Klipsch subs; lights out & tubes glowing!

[mobile homeless]

Personally, since the integrated amp form was answered fine in top two posts, I was attempting to answer the second, more difficult part of his top paragraph pertaining to the SONIC differences. I think all the answers actually help bring clarification...not confusion. OF course, one does need to actually READ all the way through the posts... of course, I do know you were a bit tongue in cheek with your conclusion.

Poor Ripped and Forlorn IS probably walking away with head in hands!

This message has been edited by mobile homeless on 02-05-2002 at 12:21 PM

[Randy Bey]

I think that integrated refers to whether the speakers are physically 'attached' to the unit or not.

For example, my upper-floor listening system has speakers that can 'hook' into the main unit, for ease of lifting, but since they can also be separated I would call them monoblocks.

Now, my primary listening system is all-in-one, with the speakers on either side of the cassette well. This is known as 'integrated'.

uh, just got a bad headache, what was I saying?

[Clipped and Shorn]

Thanks guys for the ground up explanations. Much appreciated. I did indeed read through all the posts and will definitely be reading through them again.

There really are a lot of things to mull over, especially before committing one's ducats in the direction of one's hopefully informed preferences.

Learning from others is a great shortcut and the internet has revolutionized this process.

To back up to one of the points that came up here. Since I use a magnetic cartridge, do I have to make sure that my cholce of a tube pre-amp has the correct phono stage or do I have to add a seperate phono stage component to the preamp? Please clarify this.

-Zipped and Formed

[mobile homeless]

Quite simply, your preamp or integrated amplifier (lets just go ahead and rule out the receiver) either HAS a phono stage or doesnt. Most phono stages that come with preamps or integrated amplifiers are geared towards the higher output MM (moving magnet) cartridge (or high output moving coil).

When shopping for a preamp/integrated amp, just make sure it has a phono stage. If you find a piece that particularly strikes your fancy, and it does NOT include a phono stage (is a line stage only), then you WILL need to purchase a separate phono stage to amplify the very low signals from your cartridge. These can be either solid state or tube units and there are various styles. Units that amplify the lower output (but better sounding) moving coil cartridges are more expensive and harder to do without compromise since the signal levels are so low, and any stray hum is easily picked up.

If you are just starting out and want a system that plays vinyl, I would opt for the preamp that carries a phono stage. See if you can find a unit with the power supply mounted externally since this is a major source of hum. If you notice, most tube preamps that do have a phono stage, have the power supply externally located or shielded as best possible.

Obviously, over the last 10 years or so, the phono preamp in the line stage preamplifier became far more scarce since it was added expense and seldom used with the coming of digital.

Still, many of the vintage tube integrateds carried a phono stage. Most of the 70s and 80s preamps also included a phono stage. In other words, there are plenty of used options out there to choose from! I just sold my Cary Audio preamp with a great phono stage. I have had several people on this board express interest in it but after I sold it to someone in Canada.

Two budding tube-O-philes just purchase line stages with separate phono stages. Jazman is enjoying his system as I type. He ended up with a Cary Audio SLP-90 line stage and a ASUSA PP1 tube phono stage.

Mike Lindsey just purchased a AES PH-1 tube phono stage as well, as is looking for a line stage.

Still, for simplicity, I usually recommend seeking a used preamp with a phono stage (or a documented integrated witha working phono stage).

kh

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Phono Linn LP-12 Vahalla / Linn Basic Plus / Sumiko Blue Point

CD Player Rega Planet

Preamp Cary Audio SLP-70 w/Phono Modified

Amplifier Welborne Labs 2A3 Moondog Monoblocks

Cable DIYCable Superlative / Twisted Cross Connect

Speaker 1977 Klipsch Cornwall I w/Alnico & Type B Crossover

system one online / alternate components / Asylum Listing f>s>

[Allan Songer]

I still can't get over the terms "line-stage" and "phono-stage." Geeeeesh--for the money these guys charge for a preamp these days, they should ALL have a "phono stage!" But most folks don't listen to records any more (pity them) and don't really NEED a "phono stage," so I guess I can't blame designers/manufacturers.

Anyway, any preamp that has a button that says "phono" will work--that is unless you want to use a low-output moving coil cartridge--then you'll need a "step-up transformer" as well. But if you're just going to mess around with records, you'll probably NOT be using a moving coil!

You can buy a "phono stage" from Radio Shack for about thirty bucks to use between your cartridge and "line stage" if you want to get started in vinyl on the cheap, but don't expect sonic wonders!

Better yet, buy a VINTAGE preamp with a dedicated "phono stage" and be done with it!

[Clipped and Shorn]

What particularly would be some desirable used items to be looking for in this category (tube preamps with onboard phono stage), assuming I am building toward some good tube amp(s) further down the line, possibly even SET?

Also some the things listed at the Antique Sound Lab that I saw mentioned here look pretty cool.

http://www.divertech.com/antiquesl.html

-tripped and worn

[Clipped and Shorn]

While we are starting from the ground up with terminology, I just realized I do not understand the term "Class A" from an electronics and/or an audio standpoint. How many "classes" are there?

-stripped and honored

[Randy Bey]

The classes of power amplification relate to how the signal is amplified.

All amplifiers, be they tube or transistor, have a 'working' range of input. Apply less than the minimum value to the tube (or transistor) and it won't turn on. Apply more than the maximum and it overloads, or 'clips'.

Class A reproduces a full audio wave by running the amplifier device (tube or transistor) 'half' on, so that at zero input the device is running at the midpoint of it's operating range. A dip in the input signal causes the device to go down closer to minimum range, and a peak in the signal causes the device to go higher.

In this most pure form of amplification there is about a 50% loss of power, meaning that amplifying 'zero' input runs the devices at half power.

Class B involves splitting the input signal into a positive and a negative slice, with the signal over zero volts going to one amplifier (tube or transistor) and the signal under zero going to another amplifier (t or t). Then the two outputs are summed together. There is a potential for a 'notch' to form where the two signals join. I think modern circuits have that part pretty much licked, though.

Class AB is a combination of the two, with low power signals causing the amp to operate in A mode, and at some predefined crossover point changing to type B.

There are many (many) more classes of power amp, and I think all it takes is the brains to figure out another way to do it and voila! there's class 'R' or whatever.

The engineers out there will no doubt correct the inconsistencies in my post. But that's it in a nutshell, so to speak.

[WMcD]

I thank my distinguished collegue from the Carolinas for his comments. Mr. Buckly is more eloquent than I am in politics, though he doesn't talk about audio. I'll take it as a complement, none the less.

What happened was that I read the question, and then went off line to compose a response, and then went back on line. When I posted it, there were earlier responses.

I did not intend the last line to be a zinger in itself. In some ways it was a cop out. I just don't have experience with doing an A, B, X test on the configuration of the electronic systems.

My opinion is that the modern integrated amps and non mono block systems are darn good. All electronic measurements say so. Same with wire.

On the other hand, the speakers are the weak part of the link. We see widely varying response curves which, if an amp had them, would be damning.

Call me a coot. Hey, I could get to love it.

Going from microphone through amp output the signal is flat and with little distortion. But between the speaker input and our ears, there are gross anomalies. (The machines and our ears are pretty much in agreement.)

I can't help that think the area for investigation is the latter. Klipsch speakers do a lot to make it better. That is why we're here.

Best regards to all, from "The Coot."

May I ask MH how many others he considers a coot. I just want to know what sort of company I'm in.

Smiles.

Gil

[WMcD]

Oh, I forgot to ask. MH, are you not an "Old Coot", too?

Yup, it's a zinger.

Gil

[mobile homeless]

Class A in its simplest form means the entire audio signal is amplified by the tube (transistor as well), while going to Class B means the one tube (transistor) amplifies the negative side and another tube (transistor) amplifies the postive side (they work in pairs). Class A/B simply means it operates in class A at low volts and then switches to class B at higher power when needed.

The best sound comes from Class A as the entire signal is amplified at once with no switching. It is always on, thus the heat is much higher with more stress in general (in Class B, one side if off and cools briefly while the other works). But Class A is the smoothest power as the signal is not corrupted via crossover distortion when the signal is divided.

A Pure class A tube amp such as a single - ended triode does not employ phase splitters and the signal remains pure throughout the entire amplification process, never being split. It is by far the most uncorrupted way to amplify a signal but also the least efficient. They do offer the purest sound, in even tube or solid state. They always draw full current so are hot as a bastard.

Almost ALL preamps are Class A units so expect as much.

As for recommended preamps with a phono stage there are a few out there. Personally, not too sure about the ASL preamps. Some good tube preamps that have a decent phono stage are:

Audible Illusions Modulus 3A - Great phono stage and good line stage. See them used all the time - The 3A is the best version.

Audio Research SP-6C

Audio Research SP-8C - Both of these preamps offer classic tube sound...very smooth and about the only ARC preamps I like. Still

Conrad Johnson PV10 with phono is better phono than line...warm CJ sound.

Actually, a good option used is the AES PH-1 phono stage with the AES AE-3 Line stage...the pair used will run below 700. And can be upgraded. They use 6SN7 and 6SL7 tubes in the amp stages.

Wright Sound has a new unit.... It is the WPL20 which is a line and phono preamp with sep supply. Brand new but I really liked their WLA-12a preamp. Getting a bit up there at 1250.

Cary Audio SLP-70 w/phono is a good damn preamp and fine phono stage as well. I know. I have one. Dont see them too often used, however. They use 6SL7/6SN7/12AX7.

There are many others as well...

kh

ps- ole Gil...I just now saw your post... Am I an ole Coot? Yeah, just turned 40... I still dont look a day over 39...heh. I just took this picture for a friend out west..to show I still get pissed off looking in a mirror.. http://66.155.4.65/temp/freak.jpg My wife said I look like i want to eat my own liver. I should have put a pic of her there instead. f>s>

This message has been edited by mobile homeless on 02-06-2002 at 12:02 AM

[Clipped and Shorn]

Ray,

Thanks for the book reference.

{There are books available that provide a glossary of terms. Check Amazon for books by Robert Harley, and it'll point out others to you as well.}

I did check it out.

The Complete Guide to High-End Audio

Robert Harley, Keith Jarrett;

Do you think this book goes into things as well as the great responses here in this forum? BTW what is Keith Jarrett's role in this?

-nipped and budded

[mobile homeless]

Ole Harley. He made a name for himself falling over Digital gear at Stereophile. But his book (The Complete Guide to High-End Audio) REALLY is a great intro for people looking for an overall picture of all things audio. It really is a great introduction of the basics for a beginner, yet also has material that more exerienced would find interesting. Not into technical tube matters but great for an overall presentation... It's geared for the Audiophile approach so some may bristle within here. But in all actuality, it is pretty well-written, if a bit dry as well-done steak.

The hard back is actually nice looking without the cheesy cover. Hold out for it. You can get either at Amazon. Hell, it's what I tell loons to acquire when getting into the whole hell of it all and wanting a good basic book on the horror. Many Many better tube books however. But the Harley book is worth the ducats.

kh

This message has been edited by mobile homeless on 02-06-2002 at 01:38 AM