TauRus

gtDark, you beat me to it. I was also going to point to that thread. As you probably noticed, the last post there was mine, where I shared my observation of dramatically improved CC performance after I moved it lower to the ear level. I thought a photo would probably describe better what I was trying to explain. You will find a merged photo, left portion is my HT just before I sold the RPTV, and the right portion the day after with the LCD panel instead of RPTV. Note that CC now is on the same hight as RF3 horns, and that it points directly at the main listening position. Pardon the dust, I was trying to find a new place for all those DVDs after I had to vacate the old TV stand.

JDM, does your Pio show "analysing ambience" during MCACC setup? In my secondary system I have a Pio Elite EX500 combo that also has MCACC, and this message appears during the process. I was always curious what was that "ambience" about? Perhaps, that was a part of room EQ adjustment.

Thanks, guys. So, basically the only difference between these auto setup systems is the EQ portion (number of bands, parametric vs graphic), right?

Gilbert, I also read a few reports that claim that the prices will be dropping dramatically this year. They go as far as claiming 42" ED plasmas around $1000 by Christmas time this year. I guess similar trends will be happening with other display technologies. The guys provided already with quite a range of views. A few notes that I wanted to make: 1) A few times LCD displays were mentioned here. You need to distinguish between LCD panels and LCD Rear Projection displays. Panels are as thin as plasma but currently the largest panels available are 45" in size, while LCD RP units are thicker (you will not be able to hang them on the wall) but can be much larger than LCD panels. 2) Some ED displays can rival HD displays in picture quality. If you will primarily watch SD and ED (up to 480P) then you dont have to go HD. 3) I dont quite agree with the fact that plasmas have issues with black levels and brightness. They do provide great picture, but have some weak sides as well: they are very fragile, susceptible to burn-in (avoid static images), and quite expensive so far. 3) I used to have a CRT RPTV - Hitachi HDTV Ready 43" - a fantastic TV set, with great 3D like picture, very bright. Downsides: quite bulky, requires periodic maintenance (convergence). Due to forthcoming relocation I sold this RPTV and currently use an LCD panel - Sceptre 30" Naga III. I attached a snapshot. I bought it around $1800 at Costco to use as a temporary display until I settle in the new location. I have to say I am quite impressed with this panel. I would recommend this panel for a secondary/bedroom/PC setup. Obviously its size is small for the main HT setup. But otherwise, it is a very decent unit. You might consider getting it from Costco as a temp unit as well until you get yourself a permanent replacement. Costco has a no question asked return policy, so you will be able to take it back to Costco later this year and get a full refund. If you will be interested in more snapshots, inputs, etc just ask me and I will be happy to answer your questions. Here's the link to the specs: http://www.sceptre.com/Products/LCD/Specifications/spec_X30SV-NagaIII.htm

Marshall, if you are curious about DVD5900 I would advise you to go to www.avsforum.com, then scroll down to the DVD player section. This player has been quite popular there so you will probably find more info than you wanted. As they say there is no ideal DVD player out there, and this one has its own quirks as well. Denon is replacing this model later this year with DVD5910 which supposedly will fix 5900's issues.

I am wondering whether Pioneer, Denon, Yamaha (or any other brand for that matter) use the same or different approach to their respective automatic speaker setup systems (MCACC, RoomEQ, etc). Does anyone know what differentiates these systems in terms of algorythms, EQ settings, overall approach? Based on all this, can we rank these systems (not on the basis "my receiver has it, and that is why its better", but on the basis of a more "scientific" approach).

Does Samsung have more than one HTIB with Flipsch speakers? I am asking since the one I saw yesterday in the nearby BB had a sub that looked more like the one that comes with 5.1 Ultras rather than the one in the photo above.

---------------- On 5/8/2004 10:28:37 AM muleman wrote: Hi all, I am also in the market for a surge protector/line conditioner. I looked at all the monster products and so on. I simply am not reallyimpressed with the MOV technology. I am zeroing in the the ADCOM ACE 315 and 615 products. they do not use the MOV approach. I wonder if anyone has any experience with this product??? ---------------- Muleman, I have Adcom ACE-615. It's been protecting my equipment for about 3 years now, so far no problems at all (knocking on wood ) I also tend to lean towards series mode surge suppressors, like Adcom. In fact, Adcom, Surgex, Brickwal, ZeroSurge all use the same technology licensed from a single company that holds the patent. What is good about Adcom it adds a couple of TV/Cable antenna inputs as well, so your cable will be protected too.

Guys, may I also throw in my opinion on the issue. Yes, i too am tweaking the channel levels, BM crossover, speaker size, speaker position once in a while. I think the reason why we keep doing it is that despite the fact that SPL meter readings seem to be perfectly aligned, we realize the setup is far from optimal, let alone ideal. Every time I would setup the system with SPL, I would still go back and readjust certain channels that seem either a little too hot or weak after the test tone calibration. I was also thinking about it. No, I dont think burn-in is the issue here, and my furniture stays in the same place. I think we are just leaving out too many factors while calibrating the system using SPL in conjuction with basic built-in test tones. Look at what Pioneer MCACC and now other similar systems are doing. They are not calibrating the system using just pink noise, but rather a set of different audio impulses at different frequences. Equalization also helps. My room is an exact opposite of a perfect simmetrical room for a HT - all sides are different, odd openings into other areas, cathedral ceilings, etc. I think that settting our systems just using one test tone is way insufficient to compensate for all the factors that affect the way the system sounds. YOu set the levels with the SPL and it seems to show about equal level coming from all speakers, then turn on the music and notice that the actual levels differ. So, goes the story ...

You have a PM.

---------------- On 5/4/2004 11:13:44 PM ez8947 wrote: ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------- C) low frequencies from the main FR anf FL channels based on the crossover settings. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Bravo, taurus hit it on the head. Now my question to you my good man. Are the mains frequencies ever cut when they are set to "large", in any configuration, say this one I've highlighted above? I may have to cancel my Bose Wave Radio order. ---------------- Good question I guess the crossover setting that is in the same OSD window just above the Sub mode selection defines the "cut off" for the low frequencies of the main channels, with the exception they are not really cut off the FL/FR but merely duplicated on the sub.

I guess most people already said that in different words, but let me re-cap what my understanding is of the LFE+Main mode on my Denon AVR3803. LFE channel (that infamous ".1") is routed to the subwoofer regardles of all other settings, as long as you have a sub connected to the system. In "LFE" only mode the sub plays A) LFE channel low frequencies below the BM crossover from the speakers that are set to SMALL. In "LFE+Main" mode, the sub plays A) LFE channel B)low frequencies below the BM crossover from the speakers that are set to SMALL and C) low frequencies from the main FR anf FL channels based on the crossover setings. These setting affect the sub playback only. NO additional information (like ".1" for example)is sent to the main speakers no matter whether you selected LFE or LFE+Main mode.

Original post was about just two types of connection - HD component and probably RGB. I assume these are the two HD capable connections on Toomanyseakers' TV set, correct? I would think RGB should be better out of the two. But perhaps you need to try both to see which gives you a better picture and which one allows more controls.

Congratulations, HornEd! Love actually is all around ... indeed.

---------------- On 4/29/2004 8:04:48 AM marksdad wrote: the rc 7 is by no means too large. i began my klipsch audio journey with the rc 3 which is not very different than the 35, i had rf's up front as well and it just was overshadowed by the rf's, when i listened to movies i had to turn the volume up during quieter passages, talking..... and when the action came i very rapidly had to turn the volume down, the 3 just cant keep up, i think they are better suited for bookshelf speakers, as you know most of the sound in ht comes from the center, so it is important to match as best as possible, but you only hurt the overall performance if you undersize. to solve my problem i went to the 7, and it matched so well voice was perfect transitional sounds were flawless, seamless ... ---------------- Marksdad, I remember reading this post a while ago and thinking that I have exactly the same problem - playing this volume game while watching movies to compensate for the dynamic range. So, I was thinking that an upgrade to RC-7 is in order. But recently the situation changed completely. Just wanted to share this with you guys. My front array consists of a pair of RF-3s and an RC3-II. I used to have the RC-3 sitting flat on top of the Hitachi RPTV which was roughly 2-3 feet above the top of RF-3s. Then I had the same problem with dialog in movies. Multiple attempts to balance channels with SPL, even boosting CC by a few more dBs did not really help. A short while ago I sold my RPTV. In preparation for a move I decided to get a smaller flat panel display ( I ended up getting a 30" Sceptre LCD TV). The problem was that I had no stand for this display. I came up with the idea of moving my AV stand to the middle of the room and placing the LCD TV on the top shelf, while RC-3 went to the shelf just below the LCD. It happened so, that in this new setup, RC-3 is aligned perfectly with RF-3s now, it is on the same hight as the RF-3 horns. This forced transformation of the system had a very unexpected result - I was shocked to notice huge improvement in imaging, and most importantly I no longer play that volume game. Now RC-3 sounds like a perfect match for RF-3s. So, just want to re-emphasize once again what everyone else says all the time - the center channel speaker should really point towards your main seating area. If it is positioned above or below the optimal hight you need to tilt it accordingly. I heard this advice a thousand times ago but never followed it for some reason. Now, I see the difference, hear it. And, hey, this little trick saved me a lot of money .... Well, i still would love to get an RC-7, but now I can comfortably wait for the better time to upgrade.

---------------- On 4/30/2004 10:55:29 AM michael hurd wrote: It is pretty impossible to do a true a/b test, without some time to switch wires, without the use of a switch box, and we have a poor memory, to compare something we heard a few moments ago to the same selection. ---------------- Yes, Michael, I fully agree with what you said, that is why I noted that to the extend that excercise could be called an A/B test we did not notice any significant difference. Should the difference be great, we would definitely notice that even with the time lapse for cable switching. As for the flat cables, I thought the theory of having twisted pairs for speaker cables was quite commonly accepted. I talked to so many people and read so many articles all of which claimed that twisted pair method reduces EMI/RF. So, your comment is interesting. I wonder what others think about it as well.

Ok, let me steal your thread for a moment Since we are on cable topic anyway, I was just wondering if any one here had any direct experience with the flat speaker wires. Cannot recollect all the brands that promote those but most likely you all had seen or heard their promos. I think QED is one of those brands. They are selling flat speaker wires (like 1mm thin) that can be glued to walls and painted over, thus virtually consealing themselves. Not that I am willing to buy them, but just every time I come across some promotional material about those cables I am qurious how much of the info there is true. They seem to defy all basic theories behind speaker wires - they are not constructed as twisted pairs, just have two flat thin copper conductors running in parallel and with no shielding to speak of. Looks like an axample of how a speaker wire SHOULD NOT be built. Looks like an antenna to me rather than a speaker cable. Yet, somehow now and then some "prominent" HT professional starts claiming they sound great, bluh bluh .... So, am I missing something here, or all those flat cables are crap?

Dantmfly, most likely you dont need to upgrade the cables, unless: - you have some dollars burning your pocket; - current cables are really old and turned green from corrosion; - current plugs do not provide tight connection. A year ago I did the same - I had Monster M-Series speaker cables all around and decided to get some more "serios" cables. I bought StraightWire bi-wire cables for all speakers. They are nice, much better banana plugs than on Monster. So, now I have both sets of cables. Someone asked me whether they differed a lot acoustically - so we tried to do an A/B to the extent we could and though there was a small advantage to StraightWire, that difference was not jaw dropping, but rather subtle. If you would be buying from scratch, then I would advise not to get Monster cables. THey do have some nice ones, I think in Z Series, but they are so overpriced, that hardly make sense. Since you already have the cables, I would just save the money for something else. I think you asked also about Canare. Yes, it is a well known brand, one of the leading cable manufacturers. Many custom cables are built using either Canare or Belden cables.

Funny that we went through almost the same options I too was upgrading my surround speakers last year (from Klipsch Quintets) and decided to explore alternatives. After a few visits to AV stores in my area, I more or less decided to get Klipsch RB5-IIs but prior to that wanted to listen to some omnipolar speakers and got a pair of Mirage OMNI60 bookshelves (they are much larger than Omnisats). I was really impressed by their sound and the surround soundstage they created in the rear. It was very impressive in both movies and music. I also brought a pair of RB5s as well, so I did some A/B comparison, thanks to the Denon receiver A and B surround speaker terminals I could switch from one set to another on the fly. With RB5s the surround soundstage was much less obvious, but they won big time due to their sonic match to my front array of RF3s and RC3-II. So, in the end, I returned Omnis to the store and kept RB5s.

I also have Denon AVR3803 and could not be happier with a receiver. It also matches quite well with Klipsch Reference speakers. Now, if budget is a serious limiting factor, try to audition one of these new digital receivers that are becoming so popular nowadays. Panasonic SA-XR45, SA-XR25, SA-XR50 and the upcoming SA-XR70. I have never auditioned them personally, but from whatever I read in the Amps part of the AVS forum, these are not toy amps, but quite serious pieces of equipment. I also need a receiver for my secondary setup, so I just bought a Pioneer Elite EX-500 (a combo unit consisting of a universal player DV50A and a digital receiver). No idea whether this will turn out a piece of garbage or a gem I decided to take a risk and stay off the beaten path. Will try to provide feedback on this combo once it arrives, if anyone is interested.

---------------- On 4/21/2004 6:48:25 PM cdsang wrote: Well, I looked in a magizine and and the whole 6.1 set up is 4000 MRSP. This includes the front 3, the back 3, one sub,one amp for the sub, and universal DVD player. I talked to my dealer and he said the mains may cost about $600 each but he didn't have the numbers on him at the time. CD ---------------- I got the feeling that MSRP you quoted is for KES-6100-THX , not the THX System that is discussed above. But the again, the system does not include all the items you listed.

Well, its not China's or any other country's fault the jobs are moving there. Its the guys here in this country, sitting on the executive boards of many corporations that vote for moving production out of this country. I also disagree with the fact that it does not matter where the Klipsch speakers are made. It will not take long till the high quality standards maintained by Klipsch here in the USA will start to erode overseas. Take Promedia's for example - very nice multimedia sets ... when they work ... So many of them got returned due to malfunctioning control consoles etc. Where were they made? China. Did they bear Klipsch logo? Yes they did. Did it keep them from being of subpar build quality? No. Or, take Denon for example. I have AVR3803 that is made in Japan. Great receiver. On the other hand, I had series of bad experiences with Denon DVD players last year and this year - DVD2900 (bought and returned twice), DVD2200 (bought and sold). Yes, they sound great, but with so many quality issues despite their seemingly great build quality .... Also, going back to the point about keeping jobs in the US - will it take long before design, R&D and all other business functions will follow manufacturing? Not too long, in fact its already happening. Also, how will US professionals be able to design great products if they no longer make them. I strongly belive that manufacturing and design belong to the same place. Lose manufacturing - and pretty soon your engineers and designeers will be laid off as well, since they will gradually lose the expertise and first hand experience.

You will see your options attached below. Each has its strenths: Sound & Vision is the most basic out of the three; Avia and DVE both have advanced settings calibrations for both audio and video, have color filters included.

Btw, here is the pic of my Adcom.

I have been using Adcom ACE-615 for more than three years now and am totally happy with it. I like the fact that these Adcoms do not have large dials and too many lights, except for a few diods. They look stylish and provide peace of mind. I purchased it for surge protection primarily, and the unexpected improvement in audio clarity and reduced noise in video came as good surprises. If you decide to buy Adcom, I would suggest ACE-615. It is identical to ACE-315 in all but the nimber of outlets. It would not hurt to have a couple of extra outlets for future expansion.