Deang

Clueless Everything past my signature 'Dean' is from the white paper. Many feel Klipsch not adding a midrange horn to the Reference speakers -- objectionable. I counter that 2-ways sound better anyway. The 'Heritage Brigade' counters that since most 'music' actually occurs in the midrange -- dropping the midrange horn means that the Reference speakers are not really horn driven, and that the horn loaded tweeter amounts to nothing more than a 'token' horn. I counter that two-ways sound better. Actually, I would say that the horn in Reference is handling all of the higher harmonics associated with the fundamental tones -- and so is largely responsible for much of the low level detail. I also point out that the new drivers are far superior to other drivers using conventional driver materials (straight aluminium, paper, polyproylene, and Kevlar)-- and that the Reference cones, though not horns -- are very dynamic due to their thinness (light) and stiffness. They counter that this is B.S., and that the aluminium cones are nothing more than that -- aluminium. This means that in addition to not providing the hair trigger dynamics of a horn midrange, they are subject to main problem associated with metal drivers, ie - 'ringing'. The ringing on the highs is no problem, since most of it takes place around 22Khz. Only your dog or cat will hear it. The ringing in the bigger cones is a problem. In spite of the great transients and speed found in the metal cones -- the ringing is clearly audible at the higher SPL's. I don't hear this property with the Reference speakers. If anyone would notice it, it would be me -- because I drove my previous RB5's, and my present RF7's to blistering levels. They don't ring. Why? I say the anodizing process creating the thin layers of ceramic on either side of the cone creates the damping necessary to squelch the ringing. John, obviously thinks I'm deluded -- and that the anodizing doesn't amount to a hill of beans. The white paper explains the benefits of the process. http://www.infinitysystems.com/home_audio/whitepapers/cmmd.pdf ------------------ Deanf>s> Cary AE-25 * S F Line 1 * S9000ES * HSU x-over * SVS CS+ * RF-7 Klipschcones® f>s> Exigency is the matriarch of ingenious contrivancef>c>s> This message has been edited by deang on 06-12-2002 at 04:16 PM

Well... 1) Most average sized listening rooms would not accomodate the Legacy well. I would have no use for them just from that standpoint. 2) Not a good speaker to run with a low powered tube amp. So...you are stuck with the wonderfully grainy, filmy sound of solid state. 3) I personally do not care for the sound of multi-way designs -- especially those employing dedicated cone midrange drivers. The only multi-ways I have ever heard that I liked, used dome midrange drivers (like old ADS). In other words, it's not a two-way -- so who needs it. 3) Ribbon tweeters sound to soft. What a horrible choice for HT. 4) I betcha my RF7's sound more dynamic with a 15 watt tube amp than those beasts with 200 watts. 5) As far as quality of sound goes, THAT is purely subjective. IF you factor in cost -- consider that for $14,000 you can get seven pairs, or (14) RF7's. ------------------ Deanf>s> Cary AE-25 * S F Line 1 * S9000ES * HSU x-over * SVS CS+ * RF-7 Klipschcones® f>s> Exigency is the matriarch of ingenious contrivancef>c>s> This message has been edited by deang on 06-12-2002 at 08:23 PM

My cones are prettier than your cones ------------------ Deanf>s> Cary AE-25 * S F Line 1 * S9000ES * HSU x-over * SVS CS+ * RF-7 Klipschcones® f>s> Exigency is the matriarch of ingenious contrivancef>c>s>

So Ken, was that nice Russian ammo non-corrosive? Might want to soak the metal of that weapon in kerosene for a day or so. Kev, did these Cornwalls sell out of Ohio -- or BF Egypt like the rest I always see? That's O.K. -- there's something about holding a rare matched set of Amperex 7308's in your hand -- that is another kind of rush altogether. ------------------ Deanf>s> Cary AE-25 * S F Line 1 * S9000ES * HSU x-over * SVS CS+ * RF-7 Klipschcones® f>s> Exigency is the matriarch of ingenious contrivancef>c>s>

"I'd love to change the world, but I don't know what to do -- so I'll leave it up to you."f>s>c> ------------------ Deanf>s> Cary AE-25 * S F Line 1 * S9000ES * HSU x-over * SVS CS+ * RF-7 Klipschcones® f>s> Exigency is the matriarch of ingenious contrivancef>c>s>

These opinions are very good news for guy with the now empty wallet. Thanks. ------------------ Deanf>s> Cary AE-25 * S F Line 1 * S9000ES * HSU x-over * SVS CS+ * RF-7 Klipschcones® f>s> Exigency is the matriarch of ingenious contrivancef>c>s>

You're right "anodization" isn't a word. Of course, I didn't know that until I just tried to look it up. Hey, I told you I wasn't an expert. If the process doesn't make any difference, than why do these anodized drivers sound so different compared to more conventional drivers? I listened to some NEAR's once (with metal drivers) and you could clearly hear the ringing at higher SPL's. I don't hear this with the Reference speakers. How much damping should one expect find on the surface of metal to make a difference? Doesn't seem like it would take much. The speaker in my last post is not JBL Northridge, it is made by Infinity. Man, you're brutal. ------------------ Deanf>s> Cary AE-25 * S F Line 1 * S9000ES * HSU x-over * SVS CS+ * RF-7 Klipschcones® f>s> Exigency is the matriarch of ingenious contrivancef>c>s> This message has been edited by deang on 06-09-2002 at 09:07 PM

John, What kind of shape do you usually see the EICO's in at your hamfests? Any idea about how much they run? ------------------ Deanf>s> Cary AE-25 * S F Line 1 * S9000ES * HSU x-over * SVS CS+ * RF-7 Klipschcones® f>s> Exigency is the matriarch of ingenious contrivancef>c>s> This message has been edited by deang on 06-09-2002 at 08:43 PM

where is everybody sure is dark in here there is the door for two channel forum follow me ------------------ Deanf>s> Cary AE-25/ S F Line 1/ S9000ES/ HSU x-over/ SVS CS+/ RF-7 Klipschcones®f>s> Exigency is the matriarch of ingenious contrivancef>c>s>

Where did I get 8 watts from? Who knows. Whoa, 14 watts. Killer ------------------ Deanf>s> Cary AE-25/ S F Line 1/ S9000ES/ HSU x-over/ SVS CS+/ RF-7 Klipschcones®f>s> Exigency is the matriarch of ingenious contrivancef>c>s>

Hey, I'm just trying to keep things moving over here on the old 2-channel forum, lol. It sure makes one jittery when you sit down and figure out you just got done spending enough on NOS tubes to buy a 3rd world country. (4) Amperex 7308 USN-CEP, white label, PQ military type, gold pins, and matched triode sections. $400 (4) Amperex 6922 PQ Label, white box, USA made, gold pins. $280 (2) Beckman labeled, Amperex 6922, USA made, gold pins. $100 (4) Amperex 6DJ8, Bugleboy Logo, made in Holland. $140 (2) Mullard 6922, SQ label, gold pins. $130 (4) RCA 6CG7 Clear tops. $64 (4) Siemens, East German EL-34's, matched quad. $125 ...and this is just for the freaking NOS. There is also the $170 I spent on my matched quad Svetlana KT-88's. I could have bought a set of Cornwall's with all that money!!! Ah, better not to think about these things. Oh yes, ask me if I like the sound of the 6922!!! Yeesh. At any rate. I'm set. I'm close to having enough tubes for 3 complete retube jobs on my equipment. This is important, as my wife is quitting her job in July to fully dedicate her time to home schooling the kids. So, no more play money for some time to come. ------------------ Deanf>s> Cary AE-25 / S F Line 1 / S9000ES / HSU x-over / SVS CS+ / RF-7 Klipschcones® f>s> Exigency is the matriarch of ingenious contrivancef>c>s> This message has been edited by deang on 06-09-2002 at 08:34 PM

Kelly, I was really just making a half-hearted jest. I was inferring that in order to get the sonics the AE-25 gives me at full tilt -- I would probably be constantly pushing the EICO past its safe operating limits. Of course, I realize that there really ain't squat difference between 8 watts and 15 watts in the real world. ------------------ Deanf>s> Cary AE-25/ S F Line 1/ S9000ES/ HSU x-over/ SVS CS+/ RF-7 Klipschcones®f>s> Exigency is the matriarch of ingenious contrivancef>c>s>

To the Father of KAiN64, I know this may seem very hard to believe, and since I have 5 children of my own, I know just how hard it can be -- but your son actually knows what he's talking about I would take 2 Klipsch RF7's over 5 speakers of just about anything else. Huh, as a matter of fact, I DID buy 2 RF7's over 5 of anything else. I've been doing this audio thing for 25 years and have never been so impressed with a speaker at this price point. Yes, it's a ton of money when you are still raising a family -- but on the other hand -- you will never be dissapointed, and they will give you a life time of listening pleasure. As far as I'm concerned -- there is no 'Home Theater' experience', or 'live music' experience without horns. ------------------ Deanf>s> Cary AE-25/ S F Line 1/ S9000ES/ HSU x-over/ SVS CS+/ RF-7 Klipschcones®f>s> Exigency is the matriarch of ingenious contrivancef>c>s>

Leok, Thanks for the additional info. Am I correct in my understanding that this low power distortion inherent with solid state amps is not so prominent in amps not using transistors in pairs? Does this make sense what I am trying to say? ------------------ Deanf>s> Cary AE-25/ S F Line 1/ S9000ES/ HSU x-over/ SVS CS+/ RF-7 Klipschcones®f>s> Exigency is the matriarch of ingenious contrivancef>c>s> This message has been edited by deang on 06-09-2002 at 02:58 PM

I'm curious about the quality of the preamp sections in integrated tube amps. What are the compromises involved in an integrated design as opposed to separates? I realized this is a very general question, but would welcome some comments nonetheless. Any ideas? ------------------ Deanf>s> Cary AE-25/ S F Line 1/ S9000ES/ HSU x-over/ SVS CS+/ RF-7 Klipschcones®f>s> Exigency is the matriarch of ingenious contrivancef>c>s>

The article regarding the Williamson amps that John Warren posted the link for made reference to the inferiority of the oil filled caps. However, companies producing new amps present these caps as an 'upgrade' option. What's up with that? ------------------ Deanf>s> Cary AE-25/ S F Line 1/ S9000ES/ HSU x-over/ SVS CS+/ RF-7 Klipschcones®f>s> Exigency is the matriarch of ingenious contrivancef>c>s>

Time for meat and potatoes. Now that I have completely exausted my bank account stocking up on NOS for my AE-25 and SF Line 1 -- what have I really gained in performance for my future tube needs? Are the sonic differences in NOS and NEW production tubes really worlds apart? Or is it more like slicing hairs? Is it like the debate regarding cables? Differences exist -- but so subtle as to not warrant the emptying of one's pocketbook? I suppose I could start ripping off my cages and pulling out all of my NOS tubes and replacing them with the Russian counterparts -- but auditory memory is so short, and it would be an exhausting process that I really don't feel like involving myself in right now. Hype and nonsense? Or the real deal? ------------------ Deanf>s> Cary AE-25/ S F Line 1/ S9000ES/ HSU x-over/ SVS CS+/ RF-7 Klipschcones®f>s> Exigency is the matriarch of ingenious contrivancef>c>s>

I posted this question a while ago at the asylum and got various responses. The question is: What does 'standby mode' really do, and is it really beneficial to use it? The reason I ask is because I ran across a post some time ago indicating that Dennis Hadd of Cary Audio believed 'standby' mode to actually be HARDER on tubes, and that he did not advocate the use of it. What say ye? This of course leads to the natural follow up question: What is the proper treatment of tube amps in order to aid to the health and longevity of the tubes? Deanf>s> Cary AE-25/ S F Line 1/ S9000ES/ HSU x-over/ SVS CS+/ RF-7 Klipschcones®f>s> Exigency is the matriarch of ingenious contrivancef>c>s> This message has been edited by deang on 06-09-2002 at 01:51 PM

Great posts Builder. ------------------ Deanf>s> Cary AE-25/ S F Line 1/ S9000ES/ HSU x-over/ SVS CS+/ RF-7 Klipschcones®f>s> Exigency is the matriarch of ingenious contrivancef>c>s>

Throw me in with Boa and Moon. I was kind of lazy in school. I graduated slightly above the middle in a class of 523. Luckily, my dad helped get me job here at WPAFB, and through other relationships formed at the base I landed a job in Computer Operations running IBM and CDC mainframes. I managed to the survive the UNIX distributed environments that superceded the mainframes -- and finally moved into networking 2 years ago. So now I design networks, and rely on experience and certifications to keep me marketable. I will say that hard work and a good attitude can take you a long way -- but only so far. People I work with who have degrees are making $15K a year more than me. Business rewards people with degrees -- because they paid their dues. If I had it to do all over again -- I would have went into the Air Force and went to school on the GI bill. All things considered -- God has been good to me. My advice: DO NOT SLACK. SET GOALS. FEED YOUR BRAIN. ------------------ Deanf>s> Cary AE-25/ S F Line 1/ S9000ES/ HSU x-over/ SVS CS+/ RF-7 Klipschcones®f>s> Exigency is the matriarch of ingenious contrivancef>c>s>

A fraction of a watt huh? So what do we do about an idiot like myself that listens to predominately rock music and metal, and likes to push the envelope a little. I get quite a bit of satisfaction when listening at low levels in the early evening when everyone is at home. Yes, it sounds very good. However, if I take off early from work, or if no one is home -- I find my little AE-25 sounds its best when driven to the point of clipping. The soundfield becomes all enveloping, and the transients are nothing short of remarkable. I find the same when doing a DVD. I hook up the TV to the 9000es and let her rip. The sound is simply indescribable, and impossible to relate to a person who is doing all their listening with solid state gear. Oh if I only had the money, I would buy another AE-25 and go with vertical biamping. Maybe I can't understand the "fraction of a watt" thing, any more than my solid state friends can understand my '15 class A triode watts'. I think I can say with great confidence however, that an EICO-81 would last about 15 minutes in my system -- before being reduced to a pile of molten metal and glass. ------------------ Deanf>s> Cary AE-25/ S F Line 1/ S9000ES/ HSU x-over/ SVS CS+/ RF-7 Klipschcones®f>s> Exigency is the matriarch of ingenious contrivancef>c>s>

John, I don't think I'm confused. However, I do admit to not being fully educated regarding the process of anodization. Casual reading about the process however, certainly leads me to believe the process is a little more involved than just coating the driver in the same way stain is applied to a piece of plywood. Anodization utilizes electrolysis , whereby the base metal and coating material are bound on the molecular level. The coating could also be applied using an auto-catalytic method, where electricity is not utilized at all. However we decide to understand the process, it's certainly more involved and sophisticated than pressing out a plastic or paper cone. It might be easier if I just said I believe 'coated' metal drivers sound very clean, very fast, and very good. ------------------ Deanf>s> Cary AE-25/ S F Line 1/ S9000ES/ HSU x-over/ SVS CS+/ RF-7 Klipschcones®f>s> Exigency is the matriarch of ingenious contrivancef>c>s>

------------------ Deanf>s> Cary AE-25/ S F Line 1/ S9000ES/ HSU x-over/ SVS CS+/ RF-7 Klipschcones®f>s> Exigency is the matriarch of ingenious contrivancef>c>s>

Chris, Regarding the Super Amp and your description of it being a little too articulate. I think the word you are really looking for is 'incisive'. A bit of a cutting quality. Sharp edged I think. Maybe not the best match for the K-horn, that might probably like an amp that rolls the top off a little, or a bit warmer midrange. With Reference however, that little thing smokes, huh, I mean - sizzles, well - whatever. ------------------ Deanf>s> Cary AE-25/ S F Line 1/ S9000ES/ HSU x-over/ SVS CS+/ RF-7 Klipschcones®f>s> Exigency is the matriarch of ingenious contrivancef>c>s> This message has been edited by deang on 06-08-2002 at 10:51 PM

For whatever reasons, I can't seem to get anyone to read the white paper at the Infinity site written by Floyd E. Toole and Allan Devantier regarding ceramic metal matrix drivers. So here is the whole freaking thing for the most part, with the exception of the really cool pictures, charts, diagrams, and tables. I am really growing tired of "Cerametallic" being referred to as mere "marketing hype". Deanf> ...Of all the problems that surfaced in these investigations, resonances stood out as being one of the principal causes of listener dissatisfaction. Why are resonances so important? It is probably because almost all of the sounds we want to hear are made up of resonances. In voices and musical instruments, high-Q (narrow-band) resonances define the pitches (the notes), while combinations of medium- and low-Q resonances add the timbral character that make a violin sound like a violin, and Pavarotti sound like himself. Loudspeakers with strong resonances change the timbre and, therefore, the sound of instruments and voices... ...It is obvious that audible resonances should not exist within the frequency ranges over which the drivers are used. One might erroneously conclude, therefore, that a resonance at a frequency above a crossover frequency is not a problem. Our sensitivity to resonances is such that they remain audible even after being reduced many dB by the attenuation of the crossover network. The greater the reduction in amplitude, by whatever means, the more neutral the loudspeaker system will sound. All mechanical structures have natural vibrational modes or resonances. For loudspeaker diaphragms (cones or domes), resonances are the primary source of audible coloration. There are two commonly used methods to handle diaphragm resonances. One is to allow the vibrational modes to exist, but to apply damping to the modes to reduce their Q, or bandwidth. The damping can be a coating applied to the diaphragm material, or it can be an integral part of the material structure. For woofers, popular cone materials are paper, polymers and various matrix hybrids because they are inexpensive and supply large amounts of damping. This sounds as though it should work, and it does, like tapping a wine glass to make it ring, and then lightly touching it with the fleshy part of a finger. The ringing is damped, and further taps produce only dullish thunks. Two factors prevent this from being the only solution to the problem. One is that damping is a lossy process, and damping materials can add mass to critical moving parts. Increased mass reduces the sensitivity, or efficiency, of the driver because of the extra effort needed to move the more massive diaphragm. The other factor is much less obvious: the resonances, even with their reduced Q, can still be audible. The dull thunk of the wine glass is still there; it is still recognizable as glass, not cardboard or rubber. As long as the resonances are present in the frequency range over which the transducer is to be used, damping can minimize their audible effects and, with skill, reduce them to inaudibility, but they cannot be absolutely eliminated...They (engineers) keep looking for ways to push the frequencies of these pesky resonances outside of the frequency band the driver operates in. For tweeters, metal domes have become common because they are very stiff, moving most of the severe natural modes above 20kHz; thus the modes themselves become inaudible. ...Ceramic Metal Matrix Diaphragms (C.M.M.D) are much stiffer than standard metal diaphragms, moving the natural modes significantly upwards in frequency. At the same time, C.M.M.D. cones have more damping than metal cones, making this an excellent cone material for all transducers. MOVING THE MODES UP IN FREQUENCY For a given diaphragm geometry, the frequencies of the natural modes are determined by the speed of the sound in the material which, in turn, is determined by the formula at the right. Thus, for every doubling of the speed of sound, we move the cone modes up a full octave. Sound propagates at a higher velocity in metals than in materials such as polymers and papers. A third class of materials, ceramics, has an even higher speed of sound. Table 1 shows the parameters of several common loudspeaker diaphragm materials. Once a diaphragm is attached to a surround and a voice coil, the frequencies of the natural modes of the entire moving system become difficult to predict. To calculate the natural modes of the entire moving assembly, engineers use a computational tool known as Finite Element Analysis (FEA). FEA breaks a mechanical system into thousands of small elements and then calculates the behavior of the total system based on the properties of the elements. ...with a typical 3kHz crossover to a tweeter, a mid-bass driver constructed of paper, Kevlar, or polypropylene would be operating in resonant breakup over a large portion of its range. The metal cone drivers would operate as perfect pistons over the operating band but they would have flexural modes near the crossover due to the mechanical resonances. As a result, a complex crossover would be needed to filter out the frequency-response and time-domain aberrations, so that they will not be heard. Such complicated networks are costly, and can introduce other problems. However, it is also evident that the first modes of alumina (ceramic) cone are so high that they can be filtered out with traditional, simpler and less costly crossover techniques. Clearly, alumina would offer performance superior to any of the other materials. Unfortunately, pure ceramics are also very brittle, and a diaphragm made of pure alumina would shatter under normal operation, a good reason why such materials are not popular for loudspeaker diaphragms. Show below is the frequency of the first natural cone-bending mode for the entire moving assembly of a 5-1/4" driver for each of six different cone materials attached to a typical voice coil and surround. Cone Material Frequency of First Cone-Bending Mode (Hz) Polypropylene 1500 Kevlar 1920 Paper 2160 Titanium 7440 Aluminum 6700 Ceramic 10800 Ceramic Metal Matrix 10190 LAMINATED MATERIALS Stiffness is most important at the surface of a material. Two common large scale examples illustrate this concept. The first is the ubiquitous I-beam used to construct skeletons of buildings and bridges. The top and bottom parts of the I offer increased stiffness due to their physical separation. The farther apart they are, the stiffer the beam. Another more esoteric example is the new class of honeycomb panels used in aerospace applications and to construct the walls of these same skyscrapers. Here two stiff membranes are attached to a light honeycomb structure. The distance between the membranes provides much more resistance to bending than a solid sheet of the same weight. C.M.M.D material scales this simple principle down to the microscopic level. The diaphragm is made of two layers of ceramic separated by a light metal substrate. Of the common metals, aluminum has the lowest density, making it the ideal substrate. A C.M.M.D. cone is made by first forming the cone to shape in aluminum. A unique patented process is then used to grow a skin of alumina on each side of the aluminum core. The alumina supplies strength and the aluminum substrate supplies the resistance to shattering. The resulting laminated material is less dense and less brittle than traditional ceramics, yet is significantly stiffer than titanium or aluminum, and much stiffer than nonmetallic materials. DAMPING For a given geometry, we know that the frequency of the natural modes is determined by the speed of sound through the material. The amplitude of these modes, and thus their impact on the loudspeakers frequency response, is dependent on the damping of the material. Polymers have very high amounts of damping, and metals have almost none at all. Ceramic diaphragms have significantly more damping than metals. C.M.M.D.s have damping characteristics similar to ceramics, but have a distinct advantage over them. Because of the sandwich constrained layer construction of the diaphragm, and because the speed of sound in the C.M.M.D. substrate is different than the speed of sound on the surfaces, there is additional damping. Indeed, when properly engineered, a C.M.M.D. cone can be designed to have no frequency-response peaks in the entire audible range. A COMPARISON IN APPROACHES As mentioned earlier, there are two options in cone design: reduce the amplitude of the in-band resonances by using material with high internal losses, or move the resonances out of the frequency band over which the driver is used. Figure 14 shows the bending activity in a 6-1/2 inch Kevlar® cone at 3.5kHz, near the upper end of its useful range. As can be seen, the diaphragm is anything but pistonic, showing an interesting rectangular flexure, obviously following the stiffness lines of the rectangular fabric weave. In contrast, at the same frequency, the C.M.M.D. cone, shown in Figure 15, is perfectly pistonic, showing no sign of flexure there is no resonance. Whatever one may claim about the damping of in-band resonant modes, it is clearly better to simply not have any to deal with. This is the philosophy on which...C.M.M.D. is based. Ceramic materials can withstand extreme temperatures, moisture, humidity and sunlight, and C.M.M.D. diaphragms share these properties. Finally, because the metal substrate is protected by a skin of ceramic, C.M.M.D. cones do not deteriorate even under extreme humidity, salt and moisture. This message has been edited by deang on 06-08-2002 at 09:21 PM