Deang

After spending the last month agonizing over the future of my upgrade path -- I've come to some conclusions. My financial situation is such that whatever I decide to do -- I have to do it by the end of June, and that will be it for a very long time. I took a hard look at each part of my system for the purpose of determining which piece was the 'weakest' link. My thinking was such that if I spent my last $1000 -- where would it best be served. My preamp? I really like the SF Line 1. It is an outstanding sounding unit. I thought maybe I could sell it and then buy the AE-3 DJH Signature. I may still do this. I would probably break about even on this exchange. However, my ears are really dialed in to the sound of the 6922. I don't know what it is -- but I love the sound of this tube. It would be difficult to part with it. I worry a lot about trading one sonic characteristic for another. I worry about losing something in the sound I love, and gaining something else in the sound I might not care about. My amp? The only thing I would even consider doing is an upgrade to the DJH version. The Super Amp is a marvelous piece of equipment. The main reason for doing this upgrade would be for the extra 3db of headroom I would gain. I typically listen to levels around 98db to 100db at my chair. My music is intense -- and I like listening to it at an intense level. However, I worry about diminishing returns. Since I don't listen to recordings employing acoustic or wind instrumentation -- whatever sonic gains are made by this upgrade may simply get buried and lost within the layers of distortion emanating from the sound of stacked Marshall amps. Going from SS to tubes was quite a leap -- but I feel very strongly that going to something else in the tube arena is more of small hop than a big leap. Again, diminishing returns. My speakers? Hmmm. Those RF7's. Am I ready for some LaScalas or K-horns? Cornwalls? I am not like most of you who have been listening to full range horn speakers most of your life. My background is very different. I mean, I still find the sound of a Magnepan very appealing. I can walk into showroom playing music through Magnepans -- and immediately feel at home. There is a richness and texture to the music that many other speakers just can't reproduce in this way. I remember when I first brought the RB5's home. I still had my Maggies, and spent considerable time going back and forth with music and movies. I felt the RB5 retained much of the richness and texture of the sound, while at the same time belting out the sound with a sense of realism that was for the most part absent from the Magnepans. I thought the diffuseness of the sound field produced by the Magnepan was very appealing -- but it couldn't do it at high SPL's without pinching up and sounding congested. The RB5 otoh, always sounded wide open and non-congested no matter what punishment I inflicted upon it. The little RB5 won me over -- and I sold those Magnepans. What really won me over about the RB5 was that it gave me something from every speaker I ever liked, along with its ability to hold it all together without pinching. I consider it to be THE BEST value in audio. Nothing touches it for the money. Actually, to my ears -- I can't think of anything off hand in a box that size that competes with it. Nothing. I also still remember the sound of the Heresy's and K-horns I listened to in the 70's, and most recently, the KLF30's. Yea, yea I know -- I never heard them with 'the right stuff'. However, I never heard ANYTHING I ever bought with 'the right stuff'. I listened to the RB5's on a Yamaha receiver, and RF7's on Integra. We usually listen to speakers in less than ideal settings, and rarely with the front end equipment conducive to bringing out the best in the speaker. However, we listen, and we do get a very good idea of the sonic character. I hear Reference and I hear Heritage -- and I like Reference. What do I do? I didn't like three-way horns then, and so what is it that makes me think I will like them now? It is simply all you wonderful people who own and enjoy them so much, and who present so many convincing arguments in favor of them. It is in fact simple peer pressure that makes me want to throw caution to the wind and jump straight into 'The Forbidden Zone'. When I listen to what my ears are telling me to do -- they are telling me to STOP! What is it about an RF7, Dalhquist, Magnepan, or Vandersteen that I like? I think it would have to be the smoothness in response, and a certain degree of warmth and refinement in the sound at all power levels -- at least, with the kind of music I like to listen to. Can anyone here honestly say that 'warmth' is a word they would use to describe Heritage? Something we never talk much about here is the relationship between the design of the speaker and the music we like to listen to. We like to believe a speaker should just be an 'accurate' reproducer. We don't want to say that one type of reproducer is better for one type of music over another. We want to say that if it is 'accurate' -- then these distinctions should not be made. What is really wrong with drawing these distinctions? We speak of the effects of room acoustics and the differences in recorded material -- and easily accept that not all things work in all situations. Speaking of recorded material -- what of the differences in the actual frequency specific information found from comparing a blues or jazz recording to a Heavy metal or rock/pop recording? Should we not expect to believe it might be possible for one type of music to shine on a certain speaker, and yet have another type of music completely suck -- on the same speaker? I'm throwing this out there as another possibility (along with all the others) as to why one might prefer one speaker over another. I just can't help but wonder if Metallica on a set of Scalas might just be too much of a good thing. Thoughts? ------------------ Deanf>s> Cary AE-25 * S F Line 1 * S9000ES * HSU x-over * SVS CS+ * RF-7 Klipschcones® f>s> Exigency is the matriarch of ingenious contrivancef>c>s> This message has been edited by deang on 06-16-2002 at 07:47 PM

The horns are mounted to the front baffle. He is asking $750 ------------------ Deanf>s> Cary AE-25 * S F Line 1 * S9000ES * HSU x-over * SVS CS+ * RF-7 Klipschcones® f>s> Exigency is the matriarch of ingenious contrivancef>c>s>

I'm too tired to search. ------------------ Deanf>s> Cary AE-25 * S F Line 1 * S9000ES * HSU x-over * SVS CS+ * RF-7 Klipschcones® f>s> Exigency is the matriarch of ingenious contrivancef>c>s>

What a bunch of klutzes ------------------ Deanf>s> Cary AE-25 * S F Line 1 * S9000ES * HSU x-over * SVS CS+ * RF-7 Klipschcones® f>s> Exigency is the matriarch of ingenious contrivancef>c>s>

sVs ------------------ Deanf>s> Cary AE-25 * S F Line 1 * S9000ES * HSU x-over * SVS CS+ * RF-7 Klipschcones® f>s> Exigency is the matriarch of ingenious contrivancef>c>s> This message has been edited by deang on 06-15-2002 at 06:37 PM

PLEASE do tell me what you think. I have been tinkering with the idea of trading my RF7's in on a pair. Actually, I'm agonizing over it -- I really, really, like my RF7's. ------------------ Deanf>s> Cary AE-25 * S F Line 1 * S9000ES * HSU x-over * SVS CS+ * RF-7 Klipschcones® f>s> Exigency is the matriarch of ingenious contrivancef>c>s>

I'm pretty inept with hammer, nails, and glue though. I may have to send them to HDBRbuilder to get it done right. You know how he is -- he'd probably flip out on me if I used Elmers and MDF ------------------ Deanf>s> Cary AE-25 * S F Line 1 * S9000ES * HSU x-over * SVS CS+ * RF-7 Klipschcones® f>s> Exigency is the matriarch of ingenious contrivancef>c>s>

I may just nail a piece of wood over the tweeter ------------------ Deanf>s> Cary AE-25 * S F Line 1 * S9000ES * HSU x-over * SVS CS+ * RF-7 Klipschcones® f>s> Exigency is the matriarch of ingenious contrivancef>c>s>

I sure don't see any in this pic -- so where is it? LaScala ------------------ Deanf>s> Cary AE-25 * S F Line 1 * S9000ES * HSU x-over * SVS CS+ * RF-7 Klipschcones® f>s> Exigency is the matriarch of ingenious contrivancef>c>s> This message has been edited by deang on 06-14-2002 at 11:12 PM

Does this principle you describe apply to the bass as well -- which is really what I was referring to. I've been taking a hard look at the LaScala -- and I've been thinking about how the bass works in that box. ------------------ Deanf>s> Cary AE-25 * S F Line 1 * S9000ES * HSU x-over * SVS CS+ * RF-7 Klipschcones® f>s> Exigency is the matriarch of ingenious contrivancef>c>s> This message has been edited by deang on 06-14-2002 at 11:17 PM

hmmm ------------------ Deanf>s> Cary AE-25 * S F Line 1 * S9000ES * HSU x-over * SVS CS+ * RF-7 Klipschcones® f>s> Exigency is the matriarch of ingenious contrivancef>c>s>

...way as a 'bandpass' type enclosure? ------------------ Deanf>s> Cary AE-25 * S F Line 1 * S9000ES * HSU x-over * SVS CS+ * RF-7 Klipschcones® f>s> Exigency is the matriarch of ingenious contrivancef>c>s>

A truly frightening thread. ------------------ Deanf>s> Cary AE-25 * S F Line 1 * S9000ES * HSU x-over * SVS CS+ * RF-7 Klipschcones® f>s> Exigency is the matriarch of ingenious contrivancef>c>s>

Out sourced - I emailed Bob about the Reference drivers last week, and apparently -- it's a trade secret The fact that the Heritage stuff was put on hold for so long due to supply problems also indicates that these drivers are out-sourced as well. ------------------ Deanf>s> Cary AE-25 * S F Line 1 * S9000ES * HSU x-over * SVS CS+ * RF-7 Klipschcones® f>s> Exigency is the matriarch of ingenious contrivancef>c>s>

That's true, you can theorize all kinds of nifty stuff -- that is why I originally kept trying to put the emphasis on how the new cones sound. I keep resorting to throwing up this damn white paper to back up my experience. The truth is -- I just think they do a hell of a job. Something 'engineering' related has to account for the cleanliness of the midrange, and dynamic punch found in the upper bass -- all together without falling apart. If we don't credit these new drivers with 'something', then what do we credit for the grand sound of these boxes? ------------------ Deanf>s> Cary AE-25 * S F Line 1 * S9000ES * HSU x-over * SVS CS+ * RF-7 Klipschcones® f>s> Exigency is the matriarch of ingenious contrivancef>c>s>

I was actually looking at the model called the 'Whisper' for $14,500. You're right though -- the Focus is the one he is referring too because the Whisper uses 15" woofers. Beautiful speakers for sure. Looks like that upper midrange is being carried by a dome driver. That top end probably does sound very sweet. Can't even imagine how much power you would need feed into one of these to get the same slam as Klipsch with low power tube gear. ------------------ Deanf>s> Cary AE-25 * S F Line 1 * S9000ES * HSU x-over * SVS CS+ * RF-7 Klipschcones® f>s> Exigency is the matriarch of ingenious contrivancef>c>s>

Clueless Everything past my signature 'Dean' is from the white paper. Many feel Klipsch not adding a midrange horn to the Reference speakers -- objectionable. I counter that 2-ways sound better anyway. The 'Heritage Brigade' counters that since most 'music' actually occurs in the midrange -- dropping the midrange horn means that the Reference speakers are not really horn driven, and that the horn loaded tweeter amounts to nothing more than a 'token' horn. I counter that two-ways sound better. Actually, I would say that the horn in Reference is handling all of the higher harmonics associated with the fundamental tones -- and so is largely responsible for much of the low level detail. I also point out that the new drivers are far superior to other drivers using conventional driver materials (straight aluminium, paper, polyproylene, and Kevlar)-- and that the Reference cones, though not horns -- are very dynamic due to their thinness (light) and stiffness. They counter that this is B.S., and that the aluminium cones are nothing more than that -- aluminium. This means that in addition to not providing the hair trigger dynamics of a horn midrange, they are subject to main problem associated with metal drivers, ie - 'ringing'. The ringing on the highs is no problem, since most of it takes place around 22Khz. Only your dog or cat will hear it. The ringing in the bigger cones is a problem. In spite of the great transients and speed found in the metal cones -- the ringing is clearly audible at the higher SPL's. I don't hear this property with the Reference speakers. If anyone would notice it, it would be me -- because I drove my previous RB5's, and my present RF7's to blistering levels. They don't ring. Why? I say the anodizing process creating the thin layers of ceramic on either side of the cone creates the damping necessary to squelch the ringing. John, obviously thinks I'm deluded -- and that the anodizing doesn't amount to a hill of beans. The white paper explains the benefits of the process. http://www.infinitysystems.com/home_audio/whitepapers/cmmd.pdf ------------------ Deanf>s> Cary AE-25 * S F Line 1 * S9000ES * HSU x-over * SVS CS+ * RF-7 Klipschcones® f>s> Exigency is the matriarch of ingenious contrivancef>c>s> This message has been edited by deang on 06-12-2002 at 04:16 PM

Well... 1) Most average sized listening rooms would not accomodate the Legacy well. I would have no use for them just from that standpoint. 2) Not a good speaker to run with a low powered tube amp. So...you are stuck with the wonderfully grainy, filmy sound of solid state. 3) I personally do not care for the sound of multi-way designs -- especially those employing dedicated cone midrange drivers. The only multi-ways I have ever heard that I liked, used dome midrange drivers (like old ADS). In other words, it's not a two-way -- so who needs it. 3) Ribbon tweeters sound to soft. What a horrible choice for HT. 4) I betcha my RF7's sound more dynamic with a 15 watt tube amp than those beasts with 200 watts. 5) As far as quality of sound goes, THAT is purely subjective. IF you factor in cost -- consider that for $14,000 you can get seven pairs, or (14) RF7's. ------------------ Deanf>s> Cary AE-25 * S F Line 1 * S9000ES * HSU x-over * SVS CS+ * RF-7 Klipschcones® f>s> Exigency is the matriarch of ingenious contrivancef>c>s> This message has been edited by deang on 06-12-2002 at 08:23 PM

My cones are prettier than your cones ------------------ Deanf>s> Cary AE-25 * S F Line 1 * S9000ES * HSU x-over * SVS CS+ * RF-7 Klipschcones® f>s> Exigency is the matriarch of ingenious contrivancef>c>s>

So Ken, was that nice Russian ammo non-corrosive? Might want to soak the metal of that weapon in kerosene for a day or so. Kev, did these Cornwalls sell out of Ohio -- or BF Egypt like the rest I always see? That's O.K. -- there's something about holding a rare matched set of Amperex 7308's in your hand -- that is another kind of rush altogether. ------------------ Deanf>s> Cary AE-25 * S F Line 1 * S9000ES * HSU x-over * SVS CS+ * RF-7 Klipschcones® f>s> Exigency is the matriarch of ingenious contrivancef>c>s>

"I'd love to change the world, but I don't know what to do -- so I'll leave it up to you."f>s>c> ------------------ Deanf>s> Cary AE-25 * S F Line 1 * S9000ES * HSU x-over * SVS CS+ * RF-7 Klipschcones® f>s> Exigency is the matriarch of ingenious contrivancef>c>s>

These opinions are very good news for guy with the now empty wallet. Thanks. ------------------ Deanf>s> Cary AE-25 * S F Line 1 * S9000ES * HSU x-over * SVS CS+ * RF-7 Klipschcones® f>s> Exigency is the matriarch of ingenious contrivancef>c>s>

You're right "anodization" isn't a word. Of course, I didn't know that until I just tried to look it up. Hey, I told you I wasn't an expert. If the process doesn't make any difference, than why do these anodized drivers sound so different compared to more conventional drivers? I listened to some NEAR's once (with metal drivers) and you could clearly hear the ringing at higher SPL's. I don't hear this with the Reference speakers. How much damping should one expect find on the surface of metal to make a difference? Doesn't seem like it would take much. The speaker in my last post is not JBL Northridge, it is made by Infinity. Man, you're brutal. ------------------ Deanf>s> Cary AE-25 * S F Line 1 * S9000ES * HSU x-over * SVS CS+ * RF-7 Klipschcones® f>s> Exigency is the matriarch of ingenious contrivancef>c>s> This message has been edited by deang on 06-09-2002 at 09:07 PM

John, What kind of shape do you usually see the EICO's in at your hamfests? Any idea about how much they run? ------------------ Deanf>s> Cary AE-25 * S F Line 1 * S9000ES * HSU x-over * SVS CS+ * RF-7 Klipschcones® f>s> Exigency is the matriarch of ingenious contrivancef>c>s> This message has been edited by deang on 06-09-2002 at 08:43 PM

where is everybody sure is dark in here there is the door for two channel forum follow me ------------------ Deanf>s> Cary AE-25/ S F Line 1/ S9000ES/ HSU x-over/ SVS CS+/ RF-7 Klipschcones®f>s> Exigency is the matriarch of ingenious contrivancef>c>s>