Deang

------------------ Deanf>s> Cary AE-25/ S F Line 1/ S9000ES/ HSU x-over/ SVS CS+/ RF-7 Klipschcones®f>s> Exigency is the matriarch of ingenious contrivancef>c>s>

Chris, Regarding the Super Amp and your description of it being a little too articulate. I think the word you are really looking for is 'incisive'. A bit of a cutting quality. Sharp edged I think. Maybe not the best match for the K-horn, that might probably like an amp that rolls the top off a little, or a bit warmer midrange. With Reference however, that little thing smokes, huh, I mean - sizzles, well - whatever. ------------------ Deanf>s> Cary AE-25/ S F Line 1/ S9000ES/ HSU x-over/ SVS CS+/ RF-7 Klipschcones®f>s> Exigency is the matriarch of ingenious contrivancef>c>s> This message has been edited by deang on 06-08-2002 at 10:51 PM

For whatever reasons, I can't seem to get anyone to read the white paper at the Infinity site written by Floyd E. Toole and Allan Devantier regarding ceramic metal matrix drivers. So here is the whole freaking thing for the most part, with the exception of the really cool pictures, charts, diagrams, and tables. I am really growing tired of "Cerametallic" being referred to as mere "marketing hype". Deanf> ...Of all the problems that surfaced in these investigations, resonances stood out as being one of the principal causes of listener dissatisfaction. Why are resonances so important? It is probably because almost all of the sounds we want to hear are made up of resonances. In voices and musical instruments, high-Q (narrow-band) resonances define the pitches (the notes), while combinations of medium- and low-Q resonances add the timbral character that make a violin sound like a violin, and Pavarotti sound like himself. Loudspeakers with strong resonances change the timbre and, therefore, the sound of instruments and voices... ...It is obvious that audible resonances should not exist within the frequency ranges over which the drivers are used. One might erroneously conclude, therefore, that a resonance at a frequency above a crossover frequency is not a problem. Our sensitivity to resonances is such that they remain audible even after being reduced many dB by the attenuation of the crossover network. The greater the reduction in amplitude, by whatever means, the more neutral the loudspeaker system will sound. All mechanical structures have natural vibrational modes or resonances. For loudspeaker diaphragms (cones or domes), resonances are the primary source of audible coloration. There are two commonly used methods to handle diaphragm resonances. One is to allow the vibrational modes to exist, but to apply damping to the modes to reduce their Q, or bandwidth. The damping can be a coating applied to the diaphragm material, or it can be an integral part of the material structure. For woofers, popular cone materials are paper, polymers and various matrix hybrids because they are inexpensive and supply large amounts of damping. This sounds as though it should work, and it does, like tapping a wine glass to make it ring, and then lightly touching it with the fleshy part of a finger. The ringing is damped, and further taps produce only dullish thunks. Two factors prevent this from being the only solution to the problem. One is that damping is a lossy process, and damping materials can add mass to critical moving parts. Increased mass reduces the sensitivity, or efficiency, of the driver because of the extra effort needed to move the more massive diaphragm. The other factor is much less obvious: the resonances, even with their reduced Q, can still be audible. The dull thunk of the wine glass is still there; it is still recognizable as glass, not cardboard or rubber. As long as the resonances are present in the frequency range over which the transducer is to be used, damping can minimize their audible effects and, with skill, reduce them to inaudibility, but they cannot be absolutely eliminated...They (engineers) keep looking for ways to push the frequencies of these pesky resonances outside of the frequency band the driver operates in. For tweeters, metal domes have become common because they are very stiff, moving most of the severe natural modes above 20kHz; thus the modes themselves become inaudible. ...Ceramic Metal Matrix Diaphragms (C.M.M.D) are much stiffer than standard metal diaphragms, moving the natural modes significantly upwards in frequency. At the same time, C.M.M.D. cones have more damping than metal cones, making this an excellent cone material for all transducers. MOVING THE MODES UP IN FREQUENCY For a given diaphragm geometry, the frequencies of the natural modes are determined by the speed of the sound in the material which, in turn, is determined by the formula at the right. Thus, for every doubling of the speed of sound, we move the cone modes up a full octave. Sound propagates at a higher velocity in metals than in materials such as polymers and papers. A third class of materials, ceramics, has an even higher speed of sound. Table 1 shows the parameters of several common loudspeaker diaphragm materials. Once a diaphragm is attached to a surround and a voice coil, the frequencies of the natural modes of the entire moving system become difficult to predict. To calculate the natural modes of the entire moving assembly, engineers use a computational tool known as Finite Element Analysis (FEA). FEA breaks a mechanical system into thousands of small elements and then calculates the behavior of the total system based on the properties of the elements. ...with a typical 3kHz crossover to a tweeter, a mid-bass driver constructed of paper, Kevlar, or polypropylene would be operating in resonant breakup over a large portion of its range. The metal cone drivers would operate as perfect pistons over the operating band but they would have flexural modes near the crossover due to the mechanical resonances. As a result, a complex crossover would be needed to filter out the frequency-response and time-domain aberrations, so that they will not be heard. Such complicated networks are costly, and can introduce other problems. However, it is also evident that the first modes of alumina (ceramic) cone are so high that they can be filtered out with traditional, simpler and less costly crossover techniques. Clearly, alumina would offer performance superior to any of the other materials. Unfortunately, pure ceramics are also very brittle, and a diaphragm made of pure alumina would shatter under normal operation, a good reason why such materials are not popular for loudspeaker diaphragms. Show below is the frequency of the first natural cone-bending mode for the entire moving assembly of a 5-1/4" driver for each of six different cone materials attached to a typical voice coil and surround. Cone Material Frequency of First Cone-Bending Mode (Hz) Polypropylene 1500 Kevlar 1920 Paper 2160 Titanium 7440 Aluminum 6700 Ceramic 10800 Ceramic Metal Matrix 10190 LAMINATED MATERIALS Stiffness is most important at the surface of a material. Two common large scale examples illustrate this concept. The first is the ubiquitous I-beam used to construct skeletons of buildings and bridges. The top and bottom parts of the I offer increased stiffness due to their physical separation. The farther apart they are, the stiffer the beam. Another more esoteric example is the new class of honeycomb panels used in aerospace applications and to construct the walls of these same skyscrapers. Here two stiff membranes are attached to a light honeycomb structure. The distance between the membranes provides much more resistance to bending than a solid sheet of the same weight. C.M.M.D material scales this simple principle down to the microscopic level. The diaphragm is made of two layers of ceramic separated by a light metal substrate. Of the common metals, aluminum has the lowest density, making it the ideal substrate. A C.M.M.D. cone is made by first forming the cone to shape in aluminum. A unique patented process is then used to grow a skin of alumina on each side of the aluminum core. The alumina supplies strength and the aluminum substrate supplies the resistance to shattering. The resulting laminated material is less dense and less brittle than traditional ceramics, yet is significantly stiffer than titanium or aluminum, and much stiffer than nonmetallic materials. DAMPING For a given geometry, we know that the frequency of the natural modes is determined by the speed of sound through the material. The amplitude of these modes, and thus their impact on the loudspeakers frequency response, is dependent on the damping of the material. Polymers have very high amounts of damping, and metals have almost none at all. Ceramic diaphragms have significantly more damping than metals. C.M.M.D.s have damping characteristics similar to ceramics, but have a distinct advantage over them. Because of the sandwich constrained layer construction of the diaphragm, and because the speed of sound in the C.M.M.D. substrate is different than the speed of sound on the surfaces, there is additional damping. Indeed, when properly engineered, a C.M.M.D. cone can be designed to have no frequency-response peaks in the entire audible range. A COMPARISON IN APPROACHES As mentioned earlier, there are two options in cone design: reduce the amplitude of the in-band resonances by using material with high internal losses, or move the resonances out of the frequency band over which the driver is used. Figure 14 shows the bending activity in a 6-1/2 inch Kevlar® cone at 3.5kHz, near the upper end of its useful range. As can be seen, the diaphragm is anything but pistonic, showing an interesting rectangular flexure, obviously following the stiffness lines of the rectangular fabric weave. In contrast, at the same frequency, the C.M.M.D. cone, shown in Figure 15, is perfectly pistonic, showing no sign of flexure there is no resonance. Whatever one may claim about the damping of in-band resonant modes, it is clearly better to simply not have any to deal with. This is the philosophy on which...C.M.M.D. is based. Ceramic materials can withstand extreme temperatures, moisture, humidity and sunlight, and C.M.M.D. diaphragms share these properties. Finally, because the metal substrate is protected by a skin of ceramic, C.M.M.D. cones do not deteriorate even under extreme humidity, salt and moisture. This message has been edited by deang on 06-08-2002 at 09:21 PM

Seems like no one ever wants to cut me much slack. I paid full retail price for my RF7's. $2200. Maybe I'm due. ------------------ Deanf>s> Cary AE-25/ S F Line 1/ S9000ES/ HSU x-over/ SVS CS+/ RF-7 Klipschcones®f>s> Exigency is the matriarch of ingenious contrivancef>c>s> This message has been edited by deang on 06-08-2002 at 10:48 PM

oh yea, right. If I come across a set of mint, oiled, K-horns for a few hundered dollars -- I'll buy them, and hold on to them for you ------------------ Deanf>s> Cary AE-25f>s>SuperAmpf>s> - Sonic Frontiers Line 1 - Sony DVP-S9000ES - Klipsch RF7's SVS 20-39 CS Plus - Samson S1000 - HSU Research elec. crossover - MIT/Monsters f>s> Inside every small problem is a large problem struggling to get outf>c>s>-- 2nd Law of Blissful Ignorancef>s>c> This message has been edited by deang on 06-08-2002 at 04:15 PM

I don't always cruise through this part of the forum and so missed what happened. However, I can't believe the banning couldn't have been avoided by a strong warning through an e-mail, and the deletion of the thread in question. But since I don't the know the spirit that the offense was commited in -- I can't say for sure. What happened? Did Forrest 'lose it' or something? ------------------ Deanf>s> Cary AE-25f>s>SuperAmpf>s> - Sonic Frontiers Line 1 - Sony DVP-S9000ES - Klipsch RF7's SVS 20-39 CS Plus - Samson S1000 - HSU Research elec. crossover - MIT/Monsters f>s> Inside every small problem is a large problem struggling to get outf>c>s>-- 2nd Law of Blissful Ignorancef>s>c>

Sure wish I understood everything I just read. Still a good read though. I wonder why there is such a disparity between the inferiority of the design, and what people are hearing out of this design? Most really seem to like the sound of these little buggars. BTW John, I don't agree with you that the Cerametallic cones are marketing hype. Cerametallic may just be anodized aluminum -- but anodization results in a electro-chemical transformation of the base metal. It works good. Ever read this white paper by Toole & Devantier? ------------------ Deanf>s> Cary AE-25f>s>SuperAmpf>s> - Sonic Frontiers Line 1 - Sony DVP-S9000ES - Klipsch RF7's SVS 20-39 CS Plus - Samson S1000 - HSU Research elec. crossover - MIT/Monsters f>s> Inside every small problem is a large problem struggling to get outf>c>s>-- 2nd Law of Blissful Ignorancef>s>c>

Frightening, isn't it. Well, since I've never listened to a three-way horn system with a tube amp -- I can't form any true, informed opinions about it. I'm thinking it might be time to jump in with both feet. If you want to hear something really insane. I just found out I can trade my RF7's in on some LaScalas for less than an arm and a leg. If I find them to brash, I'll relegate them to speakers stands, and buy some RB5's to put on top of them I would really like to try this -- but it's an expensive 'experiment'. I'm just really afraid they are going to be earbleeders. Harsh, grainy, bright, honkey, and no bass unless you dump the whole amp into them. ------------------ Deanf>s> Cary AE-25f>s>SuperAmpf>s> - Sonic Frontiers Line 1 - Sony DVP-S9000ES - Klipsch RF7's SVS 20-39 CS Plus - Samson S1000 - HSU Research elec. crossover - MIT/Monsters f>s> Inside every small problem is a large problem struggling to get outf>c>s>-- 2nd Law of Blissful Ignorancef>s>c> This message has been edited by deang on 06-06-2002 at 03:56 PM

Was just wondering how the Legends stack up against Heritage? Say, the KLF-30's to the Heresy's. I have a chance to land some Legends at a good price, and I am seriously thinking about buying them. I figure I can always sell them for what I paid for them if I don't like them. Whatcha all think? ------------------ Deanf>s> Cary AE-25f>s>SuperAmpf>s> - Sonic Frontiers Line 1 - Sony DVP-S9000ES - Klipsch RF7's SVS 20-39 CS Plus - Samson S1000 - HSU Research elec. crossover - MIT/Monsters f>s> Inside every small problem is a large problem struggling to get outf>c>s>-- 2nd Law of Blissful Ignorancef>s>c> This message has been edited by deang on 06-06-2002 at 11:37 AM

yes ------------------ Deanf>s> Cary AE-25f>s>SuperAmpf>s> - Sonic Frontiers Line 1 - Sony DVP-S9000ES - Klipsch RF7's SVS 20-39 CS Plus - Samson S1000 - HSU Research elec. crossover - MIT/Monsters f>s> Inside every small problem is a large problem struggling to get outf>c>s>-- 2nd Law of Blissful Ignorancef>s>c>

------------------ Deanf>s> Cary AE-25f>s>SuperAmpf>s> - Sonic Frontiers Line 1 - Sony DVP-S9000ES - Klipsch RF7's SVS 20-39 CS Plus - Samson S1000 - HSU Research elec. crossover - MIT/Monsters f>s> Inside every small problem is a large problem struggling to get outf>c>s>-- 2nd Law of Blissful Ignorancef>s>c>

"If you listen to your rig at full-on, full-tilt volume ALL the time, then true enough, you don't need no stinkin' loudness contour. But who does that?" ------------------ Deanf>s> Cary AE-25f>s>SuperAmpf>s> - Sonic Frontiers Line 1 - Sony DVP-S9000ES - Klipsch RF7's SVS 20-39 CS Plus - Samson S1000 - HSU Research elec. crossover - MIT/Monsters f>s> Inside every small problem is a large problem struggling to get outf>c>s>-- 2nd Law of Blissful Ignorancef>s>c>

they changed it to 'SVS' ------------------ Deanf>s> Cary AE-25f>s>SuperAmpf>s> - Sonic Frontiers Line 1 - Sony DVP-S9000ES - Klipsch RF7's SVS 20-39 CS Plus - Samson S1000 - HSU Research elec. crossover - MIT/Monsters f>s> Inside every small problem is a large problem struggling to get outf>c>s>-- 2nd Law of Blissful Ignorancef>s>c>

Will wonders never cease? ------------------ Deanf>s> Cary AE-25f>s>SuperAmpf>s> - Sonic Frontiers Line 1 - Sony DVP-S9000ES - Klipsch RF7's SVS 20-39 CS Plus - Samson S1000 - HSU Research elec. crossover - MIT/Monsters f>s> Inside every small problem is a large problem struggling to get outf>c>s>-- 2nd Law of Blissful Ignorancef>s>c>

Ray, The new Klipsch subs are very nice. However, there is much more bang for the buck with SVS. ------------------ Deanf>s> Cary AE-25f>s>SuperAmpf>s> - Sonic Frontiers Line 1 - Sony DVP-S9000ES - Klipsch RF7's SVS 20-39 CS Plus - Samson S1000 - HSU Research elec. crossover - MIT/Monsters f>s> Inside every small problem is a large problem struggling to get outf>c>s>-- 2nd Law of Blissful Ignorancef>s>c>

I don't know about a CSi model. If you have the standard version, it should be just 'CS' The CS+ is basically a CS with some of the things you find in the Ultra. Basically, driver that sits above the CS upgrade driver, and the tri-flow ports. You get 80% of the Ultra's performance with only 30% increase in cost over the CS. The output of one CS+ is equal to the output of 2 CS subwoofers - basically due to its higher power handling capability. http://www.svsubwoofers.com/subs_csplus.htm ------------------ Deanf>s> Cary AE-25f>s>SuperAmpf>s> - Sonic Frontiers Line 1 - Sony DVP-S9000ES - Klipsch RF7's SVS 20-39 CS Plus - Samson S1000 - HSU Research elec. crossover - MIT/Monsters f>s> Inside every small problem is a large problem struggling to get outf>c>s>-- 2nd Law of Blissful Ignorancef>s>c>

So what's a guy with only $500 supposed to do? If he buys 'used' -- he get's no warranty anyways. ------------------ Deanf>s> Cary AE-25f>s>SuperAmpf>s> - Sonic Frontiers Line 1 - Sony DVP-S9000ES - Klipsch RF7's SVS 20-39 CS Plus - Samson S1000 - HSU Research elec. crossover - MIT/Monsters f>s> Inside every small problem is a large problem struggling to get outf>c>s>-- 2nd Law of Blissful Ignorancef>s>c>

Yeh, you can't use your fingertip with MC, you have to use your tongue. ------------------ Deanf>s> Cary AE-25f>s>SuperAmpf>s> - Sonic Frontiers Line 1 - Sony DVP-S9000ES - Klipsch RF7's SVS 20-39 CS Plus - Samson S1000 - HSU Research elec. crossover - MIT/Monsters f>s> Inside every small problem is a large problem struggling to get outf>c>s>-- 2nd Law of Blissful Ignorancef>s>c>

$500 huh? You really only have three options open to you. 1) A set of used Heresy's. Shop until you find a nice looking pair. 2) How about a new set of Reference RF3II's floorstanders for $597 shipped. You can buy them here 3) For the same amount of money, you can get the 'sleeper' of the Reference Series -- the RB5 II. I had these myself for two years, and I actually prefer them to the RF3. Get them into a corner, and the bass is fabulous. A great slammin speaker. The reason they cost the same as the RF3 II floorstanders is because they have wood veneer instead of the vinyl the RF3 II uses. You can get them from the same place. Klipsch RB5 Loudspeaker review here ------------------ Deanf>s> Cary AE-25f>s>SuperAmpf>s> - Sonic Frontiers Line 1 - Sony DVP-S9000ES - Klipsch RF7's SVS 20-39 CS Plus - Samson S1000 - HSU Research elec. crossover - MIT/Monsters f>s> Inside every small problem is a large problem struggling to get outf>c>s>-- 2nd Law of Blissful Ignorancef>s>c> This message has been edited by deang on 06-03-2002 at 04:19 PM

Is the SM100 a two-way or three-way speaker? 3-ways typically have a more pronounced midband. Are they monitors or floorstanders like the RF3? Monitors do not have the extended low end, so they tend to sound a little 'hotter' on top as compared to floorstanders. It is simply because the balance is tipped towards the top somewhat. It may even be as simple as saying that the HF driver and associated crossover were 'voiced' to sound this way. Many years ago, when AR was all the rave, we used to refer to Infinity designs as "tinkle boom speakers". ------------------ Deanf>s> Cary AE-25f>s>SuperAmpf>s> - Sonic Frontiers Line 1 - Sony DVP-S9000ES - Klipsch RF7's SVS 20-39 CS Plus - Samson S1000 - HSU Research elec. crossover - MIT/Monsters f>s> Inside every small problem is a large problem struggling to get outf>c>s>-- 2nd Law of Blissful Ignorancef>s>c> This message has been edited by deang on 06-03-2002 at 03:47 PM

If you would tell us exactly how much money you are going to have when you are ready to spend it would be a big help. ------------------ Deanf>s> Cary AE-25f>s>SuperAmpf>s> - Sonic Frontiers Line 1 - Sony DVP-S9000ES - Klipsch RF7's SVS 20-39 CS Plus - Samson S1000 - HSU Research elec. crossover - MIT/Monsters f>s> Inside every small problem is a large problem struggling to get outf>c>s>-- 2nd Law of Blissful Ignorancef>s>c>

How many SVS subs does it take to create a pressure wave strong enough to keep that car from moving forward? 1, 2 ,3 ------------------ Deanf>s> Cary AE-25f>s>SuperAmpf>s> - Sonic Frontiers Line 1 - Sony DVP-S9000ES - Klipsch RF7's SVS 20-39 CS Plus - Samson S1000 - HSU Research elec. crossover - MIT/Monsters f>s> Inside every small problem is a large problem struggling to get outf>c>s>-- 2nd Law of Blissful Ignorancef>s>c>

Those three speakers all use the same 1 inch titanium compression driver. What is different is the size of the horn they are coupled to. Now listen very carefully. I will say it in a whisper. R F 7f>s>c> ------------------ Deanf>s> Cary AE-25f>s>SuperAmpf>s> - Sonic Frontiers Line 1 - Sony DVP-S9000ES - Klipsch RF7's SVS 20-39 CS Plus - Samson S1000 - HSU Research elec. crossover - MIT/Monsters f>s> Inside every small problem is a large problem struggling to get outf>c>s>-- 2nd Law of Blissful Ignorancef>s>c> This message has been edited by deang on 06-02-2002 at 05:53 PM

Tom's tone was appropriate. You need to work on being clever. You have confused being 'clever' with being 'anal'. There is nothing to gain by being small minded. ------------------ Deanf>s> Cary AE-25f>s>SuperAmpf>s> - Sonic Frontiers Line 1 - Sony DVP-S9000ES - Klipsch RF7's SVS 20-39 CS Plus - Samson S1000 - HSU Research elec. crossover - MIT/Monsters f>s> Inside every small problem is a large problem struggling to get outf>c>s>-- 2nd Law of Blissful Ignorancef>s>c>

Oh, I almost forgot. Zeke -- HSU makes good stuff. You should buy it. What is the point in bashing Tom? Buy what you want, we could really care less. You're the one that has to live with your decision, not us. As far as your other questions go -- use the search utility. I don't think anyone here is really interesting in addressing anymore of your questions at this point. Tom is family. OTOH -- we haven't had anyone to kick around for some time, so you could stick around. It's tough finding a villiage idiot here at the Klipsch Forum. ------------------ Deanf>s> Cary AE-25f>s>SuperAmpf>s> - Sonic Frontiers Line 1 - Sony DVP-S9000ES - Klipsch RF7's SVS 20-39 CS Plus - Samson S1000 - HSU Research elec. crossover - MIT/Monsters f>s> Inside every small problem is a large problem struggling to get outf>c>s>-- 2nd Law of Blissful Ignorancef>s>c>