Seb

Sorry for the copyright issues... "Seb, One of the points I'm trying to make is... it is all intrinsic value. The effect of a $5 or $5000 cable upgrade is worth something different to each of us. Some are ready, willing and able to pay mucho $ for what might be little sonic value to you or I, whilst others would not spend $50 for HUGE sonic improvements in their system that you or I would detect." Couldn't agree more. Why do you think I have to fight everybody around me to justify my future speaker purchase? "Additionally, sometimes the more expensive cable doesn't improve the sound and the contrapositive is true(Sometimes the least expensive does), although generally better=more $$." Now THAT would be funny... Imagine? Rat Shack wire sounding better than some high-end, high-priced exotic? Talk about losing brand equity! "It is, of course, a system dependent decision. I would agree that there are diminishing returns for any system with regards to cable upgrade,however, I would disagree with the notion that the money is better spent on the speakers alone. The playback chain is just that, a chain. Any weak link in that chain is going to yield poor performance." Again, I definitely agree. I was taking speakers as an example, not a generalisation, because it is widely belived (understood?) that speakers are the component that impacts the sound of a system the most. It is true that the playback chain can be cracked open by a weaker link. "I am of the opinion that since the typical cost of cables within a system are 10-20% of it's total value and an upgrade would be a lower % of that total, it would seem to me the biggest bang for the buck might well be the cables. In Schmidty's case it might be an additional separate stereo amp for only $350 driving those speakers with $150 left over for cables(his 30's are not the weak link here...IMHO)." Okay, here's where I'd like to add the following: the cable expense for, say, somebody who purchases a set of Energy Take 5.2 should be a higher percentage than for the guy who buys a Klipschorns all around using all separates. Why? Because you need a certain minimum quality of the wire so that that link doesn't affect the sound of the system, or rather affects it in such a minimal way that the system isn't hampered by it. Sure you will use better cable if you're running the Khorns than if you're stuck with the Energy system, but are you going to spend 1500% more on the cables? I wouldn't. Let's run the numbers: a guy buys a set of Take 5.2 plus a receiver. Let's say it runs him $800. Another guy spends 2K per pair of Khorns <3 total, $6K>, plus 6K on a pre/pro and separate amplifiers. The second guy (lucky him) has a total system cost of $12,000, 1500% more than the first guy, who only spent $800. The first guy uses big-gauge Home Depot wire and Radio Shack Gold interconnects, at a total cost of, say, $100. Should the second guy reasonably spend $1,500 on cables? Hell no! Before he does, he'll acquire some AlK xovers, add a separate amp for the center channel, treat his room acoustically, whatever. Those tricks would in my opinion yield a much better return on investment than that huge additional expense in cables... I think $700 worth of cables and interconnects at the most would allow for cables to get out of the way, and stop being the limiting factor in that person's system. "I am not making a judgement call here on anyone specifically, but if I'm running a $3000 pr of B&W 802 S3 and Radio Shack speaker wire, what am I to gain by selling my 802's at a loss and spending $500 more on another used pair of 802's. Upgrade for "me" would be a pair of $6000 801's and I'm still running Rack Shack cable? I'd gladly go from AQ Lapisx3 to Kimber 1030 for my dollar. Would I get more by upgrading Forte's to Chorus instead of 2 sets of AQ Ruby to AQ Lapisx3??" Well of course sometimes spending additional money on speakers is not an option, but like I said above, this was only an example. In your case, I would think acoustically treating your room or maybe start delving into surround sound would be viable options, among other numerous upgrades... because you have the minimal cable quality required not to interfere, at least not in a major way, with the rest of your NICE system. "For me, cables DO make a difference, for better or worse... and so do the electronics." Cool! Everybody and his ears is entitled to his opinion, last I checked!! "In sum, since I am of the opinion that it is a worthwhile effort to upgrade cables within a system and others here MAY NOT feel the same, I am simply and graciously offering to rid those who feel encumbered by their ownership an even swap of my terrific cable." You're exaggerating again. I don't think any sane-minded person, unless driven by charity, would exchange exotic cable for cheap wire, for two reasons: 1) it probably won't sound better, and 2) there is a reason why they spent the money for better cables in the first place, might indicate that they are veering towards your side of the issue rather than mine, and therefore won't give you their precious cable. As for me, if I had expensive exotic speaker wire, I would gladly exchange it for some big-gauge Home Depot PLUS additional financial incentives. But I don't, so I guess unless I find some in my garage like Justin, I'll have to stick with my big-gauge Home Depot and Radio Shack Gold interconnects! P.S.: Oh, and of course this is all semi-educated, relatively sane-minded, light-wallet encouraged OPINION. Mine. ------------------ http://members.fortunecity.com/sebdavid - go laugh at my crappy website/equipment http://www.dvdprofiler.com/mc.asp?alias=Sebdavid - go laugh at my puny little DVD collection This message has been edited by Seb on 03-01-2002 at 11:56 PM

Ray, I still think my pojnt holds. That 500$ in cables would have been better spent on better speakers, assuming again you already have decent-quality wire. SOUNDJUNKIE, I don't know where you were trying to go with this, nobody said the high-end stuff was INFERIOR, merely that it may or may not be worth the additional cost. ------------------ http://members.fortunecity.com/sebdavid - go laugh at my crappy website/equipment http://www.dvdprofiler.com/mc.asp?alias=Sebdavid - go laugh at my puny little DVD collection

"IMHO", go with either the RF-3 or RF-7. only you can make that decision, but it is not worth it imo to go with the RF-5s, as they have a lot in common with the RF-3s but the price difference is BIG. if you go with RF-3s, you could potentially use 6 of them for an ideal multichannel setup... RF-3s all around would be good, no? decide whether that would be better than RF-7 plus RC-7 plus RS-7... oh, and don't forget, RF-3s are only available in "Cheap Black"... ------------------ http://members.fortunecity.com/sebdavid - go laugh at my crappy website/equipment http://www.dvdprofiler.com/mc.asp?alias=Sebdavid - go laugh at my puny little DVD collection

for simplicity and signal cleanliness, I prefer the low-level connection (option 1), with all speakers set to small. but in some specific cases, it might be beneficial to use the other option. try them both if you can! ------------------ http://members.fortunecity.com/sebdavid - go laugh at my crappy website/equipment http://www.dvdprofiler.com/mc.asp?alias=Sebdavid - go laugh at my puny little DVD collection

looks very solid, looking at the specs, they give proper specs including distortion, all channel driven etc. and they give the specs at 4ohm or 6ohm too I believe. solid amp section, or so it seems. also look at the weight in the specs, this is a heavy piece of equipment, always a good indication. the only thing is, you pay for 6.1 processing you're never going to use, as it does not have a power channel for the surround back speaker. and using a separate amp would be expensive, unless you have an old one lying around somewhere. looks good IMO, but definitely look at the price compared to the Denon 2802 or 3802. ------------------ http://members.fortunecity.com/sebdavid - go laugh at my crappy website/equipment http://www.dvdprofiler.com/mc.asp?alias=Sebdavid - go laugh at my puny little DVD collection

damn them all to hell then! ------------------ http://members.fortunecity.com/sebdavid - go laugh at my crappy website/equipment http://www.dvdprofiler.com/mc.asp?alias=Sebdavid - go laugh at my puny little DVD collection

yes it is, since it's backwards compatible, they don't come out with two identical versions. and I don't think HDCDs really are more expensive than the rest, the one I have I didn't pay more for at the time. the average HDCD price may be higher, but i think it's just a correlation, as more exotic audiophile recordings will be HDCD and will have higher prices at the same time. besides, apparently there isn't a real major difference... hey, do Denon receivers decode HDCD? ------------------ http://members.fortunecity.com/sebdavid - go laugh at my crappy website/equipment http://www.dvdprofiler.com/mc.asp?alias=Sebdavid - go laugh at my puny little DVD collection

real-time analyzer ------------------ http://members.fortunecity.com/sebdavid - go laugh at my crappy website/equipment http://www.dvdprofiler.com/mc.asp?alias=Sebdavid - go laugh at my puny little DVD collection

this is a power amp, right? then what do the knobs do? and justin, I would be willing to trade my Sony speakers for your Maranz unit, that way you could complement your set of high-quality speakers and I could power my future RF-7s or RF-3s properly. deal? ------------------ http://members.fortunecity.com/sebdavid - go laugh at my crappy website/equipment http://www.dvdprofiler.com/mc.asp?alias=Sebdavid - go laugh at my puny little DVD collection

I think Stu nailed it: why spend 500$ on speaker wire to get a small improvement, when you could spend an equal amount on better speakers and get a much bigger improvement? I mean, until you really can't upgrade your speakers anymore, or your amp or whatever, the price/performance ratio of buying better cables (assuming you already have decent-quality big-gauge wire) doesn't make sense compared to the same ratio in other areas of the system, no? ------------------ http://members.fortunecity.com/sebdavid - go laugh at my crappy website/equipment http://www.dvdprofiler.com/mc.asp?alias=Sebdavid - go laugh at my puny little DVD collection

ummm... are you sure HDCDs won't work unless you have an HDCD decoder? I have a CD that I'm pretty sure is genuine HDCD and I can play it, and from what I've read everywhere when you don't have an DCD decoder, it just reads it like a normal CD, and you don't get the additional benefit, but it still works. ------------------ http://members.fortunecity.com/sebdavid - go laugh at my crappy website/equipment http://www.dvdprofiler.com/mc.asp?alias=Sebdavid - go laugh at my puny little DVD collection

no, the decoding won't really be different, except it's more practical because you only need one cable (digital), and it offers potentially better quality since you run the signal in digital modfe over the majority of its course, as opposed to analog reight out the DVD player. Also, most receivers have several digital inputs, and only one set of 5.1 inputs, and if you free that up, you can use it for DVD audio or SACD multichannel music. also, you won't have to change your DVD AND your receiver to upgrade to 6.1, 7.1, etc... just change the receiver. and I don't know whether there are DVD players with 6.1 or 7.1 analog outputs. I don't really see any reason for buying a DVD player with 5.1 analog outs, really. ------------------ http://members.fortunecity.com/sebdavid - go laugh at my crappy website/equipment http://www.dvdprofiler.com/mc.asp?alias=Sebdavid - go laugh at my puny little DVD collection

for more info: http://spade.riec.tohoku.ac.jp/lab/machine-shop/ http://www.riec.tohoku.ac.jp/lab/index-e.html#leis I'd like to try it. ------------------ http://members.fortunecity.com/sebdavid - go laugh at my crappy website/equipment http://www.dvdprofiler.com/mc.asp?alias=Sebdavid - go laugh at my puny little DVD collection

I will be right before TheEars in saying that RF-7s will kick you silly with bass when used with a big-*** high-current amp. Trust me, I listened to that setup once, and it really went deep, surprisingly deep without a sub. However, there is no substitute for a good subwoofer. No speaker can come close to the bass reproduction a good sub unit can offer. ------------------ http://members.fortunecity.com/sebdavid - go laugh at my crappy website/equipment http://www.dvdprofiler.com/mc.asp?alias=Sebdavid - go laugh at my puny little DVD collection

must slaughter your wallet too... you'll have mail this weekend when I'm at work, Ears. ------------------ http://members.fortunecity.com/sebdavid - go laugh at my crappy website/equipment http://www.dvdprofiler.com/mc.asp?alias=Sebdavid - go laugh at my puny little DVD collection

Welcome! ------------------ http://members.fortunecity.com/sebdavid - go laugh at my crappy website/equipment http://www.dvdprofiler.com/mc.asp?alias=Sebdavid - go laugh at my puny little DVD collection

------------------ http://members.fortunecity.com/sebdavid - go laugh at my crappy website/equipment http://www.dvdprofiler.com/mc.asp?alias=Sebdavid - go laugh at my puny little DVD collection

...and once again, i am amazed at the diversity of knowledge found among this board's users. ------------------ http://members.fortunecity.com/sebdavid - go laugh at my crappy website/equipment http://www.dvdprofiler.com/mc.asp?alias=Sebdavid - go laugh at my puny little DVD collection

Hey, reminds me... I just got a Bose demo CD... It's scratched, but I think I'll be able to play some of it... Anyone interested in what's on it? ------------------ http://members.fortunecity.com/sebdavid - go laugh at my crappy website/equipment http://www.dvdprofiler.com/mc.asp?alias=Sebdavid - go laugh at my puny little DVD collection

www.steves-digicams.com www.dpreview.com www.dcresource.com my three favorite websites to drool over and learn about the cameras I sell... TheEar, look, I won't go to cost, but tell me what price you consider a good deal, and by golly, I'll try to do whatever I can to reach it! I just want to see those pictures so much! Remember, though, the margins aren't even close to those in hifi, so 40% below retail is NOT an option! HornEd, never tried that E20, looks good and feels pretty good from the brief encounter I had with it, but I didn't get to actually take pictures with it. It would be kind of a waste of time, sicne we don't see many people who are interested in it anyways! Definitely a very good "pro-style" camera, from what I can gather, though. Not the same league as the ones I suggested above! Ears, contact me, unless you're afraid to show us those pictures... ------------------ http://members.fortunecity.com/sebdavid - go laugh at my crappy website/equipment http://www.dvdprofiler.com/mc.asp?alias=Sebdavid - go laugh at my puny little DVD collection

1) Yes, you will be able to use the extra channels with all your DVDs, with varying degrees of success, meaning it will work marvelously on some films, and not as well on others. Most are improved, however. 2) For 7.1, it all depends on your preferences. If you like the Klipsch-style surrounds, then go for two pairs of that, but if you like the direct-radiating style, then use that instead. Nobody can tell you what sounds best, it's just a matter of opinion. I myself think the direct-radiating speakers sound best, plus you have the advantage of better performance with multichannel music. As for dipolar/bipolar/direct-radiating combinations for 6.1 and 7.1, I will leave that to people who actually have tried them. 3) Due to the difficulty of obtaining only one surround speaker, I would use a center speaker for the rear. However, the fact that I like direct-radiating (normal) speakers for surrounds sure weights in this decision. Lastly, I think the 3802 is definitely worth the extra money. IMO, it's the "sweet spot" in the Denon line. ------------------ http://members.fortunecity.com/sebdavid - go laugh at my crappy website/equipment http://www.dvdprofiler.com/mc.asp?alias=Sebdavid - go laugh at my puny little DVD collection

given the configuration you have, and if you like multichannel music, I think you should definitely go for it. don't you find the Klipsch/Onkyo combo to be too aggressive? ------------------ http://members.fortunecity.com/sebdavid - go laugh at my crappy website/equipment http://www.dvdprofiler.com/mc.asp?alias=Sebdavid - go laugh at my puny little DVD collection This message has been edited by Seb on 02-28-2002 at 02:02 PM

quote: Originally posted by gyoko: Hi Guys/Gals, The center channel is a horn-loaded loudspeaker built by a small company called CRH, which I live near. SOUNDJUNKIE, I think he was pretty upfront about that, no? ------------------ http://members.fortunecity.com/sebdavid - go laugh at my crappy website/equipment http://www.dvdprofiler.com/mc.asp?alias=Sebdavid - go laugh at my puny little DVD collection

quote: Originally posted by dndphishin: If a customer was open to the idea of a larger speaker or a different brand of sub/sat kit, and had a more discerning ear, the Bose was not an automatic sale. In fact, those who really spent time listening did not normally choose Bose (especially not the Acoustimass). Dave Noooooo!!! Serious?? ------------------ http://members.fortunecity.com/sebdavid - go laugh at my crappy website/equipment http://www.dvdprofiler.com/mc.asp?alias=Sebdavid - go laugh at my puny little DVD collection

VERY tempting... I have sent an email to JBL pro asking about shipping charges and such, if any other Canadian is interested... ------------------ http://members.fortunecity.com/sebdavid - go laugh at my crappy website/equipment http://www.dvdprofiler.com/mc.asp?alias=Sebdavid - go laugh at my puny little DVD collection