cc1091

I'm sure there are plenty of folks here who can talk your ear off about the shorthorn. In case you haven't already found it on the web site though, you can find a short description and list of drivers/crossover/spec for the shorthorn by clicking on the "Products" link at the top of this page and then holding your mouse over the words "Home Audio", a dropdown list should appear. Click on the words "Classic" on the drop down list. This should take you to an Alphebetical list of Klipsch products that are no longer in production. Scrolling down the list you will find the Shorthorn 12 and Shorthorn 15. Hope this helps. OK everyone, let him have it with your knowledge of the shorthorn... ------------------ Denon AVR-2700 Denon DCD1500-II Audio Control Octave Phillips CDR-765 Nakamichi BX-100 Sony PS-LX3 Rotel RB-991 Klipsch Heresy (1981) Klipsch RP-3 B&W602 MIT Terminator2 Bi-Wire Computer system: NAD 7130 Realistic Optimus Pro-7s (its only a computer system) Klipsch KSW-10

Comments please: Take one Heresy Tweeter (K-77-M) one heresy Squawker (K-55-V) and one 10" K-1082-k subwofer w/440 watt peak, 22hz to 90hz. Crossover??? No coverage from 90hz to about 700hz: Driver suggestion? Work in the lab continues... This message has been edited by cc1091 on 10-02-2001 at 11:29 PM

I once had 500 watts of Carver amp power coursing through my home Heresys (I could only stand it for about five minites though). They seemed no worse for wear. Although a few years later I did replace a squaker diaphram. Perhaps this was damaged those few years before, and I just didn't notice the problem til then? Ear protection please. ------------------ Denon AVR-2700 Denon DCD1500-II Audio Control Octave Phillips CDR-765 Nakamichi BX-100 Sony PS-LX3 Rotel RB-991 Klipsch Heresy (1981) Klipsch RP-3 B&W602 MIT Terminator2 Bi-Wire Computer system: NAD 7130 Realistic Optimus Pro-7s (its only a computer system) Klipsch KSW-10

Not to get you guys off the subject any further, i just wanted to comment about Dougdrake2's reaction to the Acurus amp compared to the Denon receiver's amp. I too had a similar reaction to replacing my fne sounding Denon amp powered front channels with a Rotel amp. Though the Denon is good-n-clean with fine frequency response throughout, the Rotel is a magnitude better. I didn't have the same response when I borrowed a friend's Marantz monoblocks. The denon amp ruled over the Marantz. Your description of the Acurus continuing on after power shutoff reminded me of the demo where the salesman had the Klipsch RP-3, RP-5 and RF-3 all connected by switch to the Adcom GFA-5802. We listened to the combo one-by-one, and then all three at once. Then he turned off the power, and we still listened to all three for several seconds (I'm sure more than five before it started to decay). My Rotel has speaker protection circuitry that shuts off the speakers when the power switch is turned off or initially when it is turned on. ------------------ Denon AVR-2700 Denon DCD1500-II Audio Control Octave Phillips CDR-765 Nakamichi BX-100 Sony PS-LX3 Rotel RB-991 Klipsch Heresy (1981) Klipsch RP-3 B&W602 MIT Terminator2 Bi-Wire Computer system: NAD 7130 Realistic Optimus Pro-7s (its only a computer system) Klipsch KSW-10

edric- I haven't listened to the B&K. Here-say info: Has a reputation for being finnicky. When you have a good model that is set-up properly, they tell me it is wondefully balanced. You pay for what you get with the Parasound. Some models have trouble with excess noise. Less expensive Parasound amps suck. I'm sure a good dealer can help you out if there is a problem with a particular purchase. Don't mail-order a Parasound. I have a Rotel (Not the oe you speak of here though). It hides its power well, but when called upon it does perform. Clean, smooth sound. Not colored. Not balanced as much toward the bass as the Parasound and certainly not as much as an NAD. Adcom. Solid, Rugged, Reliable. Not exceptional sounding (although their 2 chanel flagship model is close to exceptional). Paired with the right preamp and speakers can give the best a good run. As inexpensive as the Rotel. ------------------ Denon AVR-2700 Denon DCD1500-II Audio Control Octave Phillips CDR-765 Nakamichi BX-100 Sony PS-LX3 Rotel RB-991 Klipsch Heresy (1981) Klipsch RP-3 B&W602 MIT Terminator2 Bi-Wire Computer system: NAD 7130 Realistic Optimus Pro-7s (its only a computer system) Klipsch KSW-10

Seb - After you get that new amp, make sure to buy some good speaker cable with them. None of this radio shack cheapie stuff. MIT or Monster cable of about an inch thick. Don't forget the banana plugs. I recommend the MIT Terminator 2 at as little as $130 per ten foot pair, plus another $15 for the banana plugs. <JK> <actually, if you can afford it. I highly recommend it> ------------------ Denon AVR-2700 Denon DCD1500-II Audio Control Octave Phillips CDR-765 Nakamichi BX-100 Sony PS-LX3 Rotel RB-991 Klipsch Heresy (1981) Klipsch RP-3 B&W602 MIT Terminator2 Bi-Wire Computer sound system: NAD 7130 Realistic Optimus Pro-7s (its only a computer system) Klipsch KSW-10 This message has been edited by cc1091 on 09-11-2001 at 10:39 PM

It would be interesting to see a JAVA applet where you could drag a slider of each Klipsch speaker model along a line (much like the margin markers in MS Word). Moving the marker further to the right would equal a higher rating. Once done, then you could produce a graphic representation of what each person who visits the Klipsch website thinks of each speaker relative to others in the line. Of course all responses would then be averaged into some kind of overall performance rating. Also each speaker's slider would have an option to not rate the speaker if the person doing the rating had no experience with that perticular model of speaker. I must agree with those above who say the Forte(s) and Chorus (In my book as more a part of the KG line than the Heritage line), rule over the KLF and Reference line (even my much loved RP-3s that no one else seems to give a damn about). I would even put the Chorus and Forte ahead of the Heresey and Cornwall. KLF vs existing Reference line? In my book: KLF line is as loud as the traditional Klipsch speakers, but there seemed to be more distortion than traditional Klipsch speakers too. Build quality seemed to be suspect. Reference Line is shooting for a different bird. Not as loud, mellower, somewhat more accurate, deeper bass (until they discontinued the RP series). Depends upon your tastes. Having heard many Heritage series speakers, the KLF seem somewhat redundant to me. The reference series, though still not even close to the Heritage series in build quality, were at least shooting at a different target (and this year that target has suddenly moved closer than ever before to the Synnergy series). This message has been edited by cc1091 on 09-06-2001 at 11:31 PM

Hmmm...Certainly doesn't look like the driver that is attached to the back of my tractrix horn. I could find any identifying marks on the driver, but did find th Klipsch label and model number on the plastic horn. Slide-on binding posts one next to the other on mine. Also, no fancy enclosure for the driver. What looks like a ring magnet attached to the back of the unit and then another ring magnet toward the front. Aluminum casing sandwiched between. Perhaps this is made by B&C, but they didn't want anyone to know about it. I tried to post the picture here, but somehow the link isn't working. E-mail me if you're curious. ------------------ Denon AVR-2700 Denon DCD1500-II Audio Control Octave Phillips CDR-765 Nakamichi BX-100 Sony PS-LX3 Rotel RB-991 Klipsch Heresy (1981) Klipsch RP-3 B&W602 MIT Terminator2 Bi-Wire Computer system: NAD 7130 Realistic Optimus Pro-7s (its only a computer system) Klipsch KSW-10 This message has been edited by cc1091 on 08-30-2001 at 10:23 PM

We're looking at raw driver output here. I am assuming that the crossover modifies the peaks SPL so that it never exceeds a certain range where the engineers have decided the response is acceptable (although I'm sure there is still some non-linearity left). I could be farting in the wind though. I'm only an interested onlooker in the game of serious speaker design. I'm also not sure how dbs at 1watt at 1 meter equates to the SPL shown on this chart though. Something we're also not sure about is if this IS the driver that Klipsch uses. djk only says that this is a "High Probability". I'll have to disassemble the face of my RP-3s tonight to see if there are any identifying characteristics besides Klipsch written on the driver. ------------------ Denon AVR-2700 Denon DCD1500-II Audio Control Octave Phillips CDR-765 Nakamichi BX-100 Sony PS-LX3 Rotel RB-991 Klipsch Heresy (1981) Klipsch RP-3 B&W602 MIT Terminator2 Bi-Wire Computer system: NAD 7130 Realistic Optimus Pro-7s (its only a computer system) Klipsch KSW-10

Looks like the linearity of this driver through its operational range is not great. Within 3db of peak from about 900hz to about 4500hz, then again at about 5500hz to about 11000hz. Output sure drops off around 15,000 hz. Odd that Klipsch rates these to 20,000 hz. Perhaps I'm not reading enough into this. (?) ------------------ Denon AVR-2700 Denon DCD1500-II Audio Control Octave Phillips CDR-765 Nakamichi BX-100 Sony PS-LX3 Rotel RB-991 Klipsch Heresy (1981) Klipsch RP-3 B&W602 MIT Terminator2 Bi-Wire Computer system: NAD 7130 Realistic Optimus Pro-7s (its only a computer system) Klipsch KSW-10

A good 5 to 10 watt tube amp would be enough to power a pair of RF-7s or indeed most Klipsch products to sound levels that you would need to shout to be heard over. My Heresys worked fine with an old 7 watt Heathkit mono tube amp (experimenting is fun).

Another vote for Joe Satriani here. A different album though. His first Album (that I am aware of): "Flying in a Blue Dream" First track, same name as the album. Bass line mixes in some extremely deep bass notes. It is my favorite track for testing low end response of speakers. There are three notes that are a part of the bass line and regularly repeat. If you can't hear them, then the bass response of the speakers doesn't extend to below 30 hz (I hear them fine with a speaker rated for a low end of 27 hz). Be sure to get the digitally remastered CD.

I'm curious if anyone has ever seen, or is in possession of, frequency plots for the Klipsch Tractrix horn & driver used on the reference series speakers? It seems like Klipsch is asking it to do a lot (20Khz to around 2khz).

For what its worth, the Audio King that I am most familiar with (and the Audio King the also keeps the Klipsch products in the worst condition of any Audio King I've seen) is the Woodbury store. Klipsch speakers with twisted aluminum drivers, broken grilles, gashes in the edges, and wired using the cheapest wire they could find. To hear that the Roseville store is not much better is no surprise. In fact the Edina Store is not great. The Minnetonka store is about as good as they get. To hear BobG say that the Audio King/Ultimate Electronics franchise is one "in good standing" with Klipsch irritates me. Must be a shear volume of sales judgement. Yes, they are very similar to a Best Buy except they have maintained their focus on mid-fi stereo equipment and televisions. They seem very lax on their support for Klipsch though. Audio Perfection is a true hi-end audiophile store. (possibly the only store in the country that carries the full line of Atma-Sphere triode amps) Their sales staff is too snooty for me though. I would reccommend Hi-Fi Sound in downtown Minneapolis for sales staff alone. Unfortunately, they don't have Klipsch speakers either (and owner says,"I wouldn't allow a Klipsch speaker in the store."). Still somewhat snooty, but tolerable.

I've never really liked McIntosh Amps. They always had a 1968ish electronics nerd aura abou them. Perhaps it is the fact that they like to use technology that is tried and true..placing them about twenty years behind the times. As for the B&W 801s speakers... Yeah, I'd love to get a hold of these babies. But they do have a few drawbacks (besides costing a lot of dough). They need oodles and oodles of clean, clear power (unlike the K-horn that can sound great with only a few watts). They also have this nasty tendency of pointing out exactly which recordings in your collection suck. Unless you're 100 percent certain that your favorite recordings were recorded by the best sound engineers in the buisness, and that those recordings were put onto media using the absolut best techniques available today, don't buy these speakers. These speakers will point out which voilinist in a group is not holding the bow correctly. They are great speakers. They can be incredibly musical. They can show you just how bad your favorite recordings actaully are. Finally. Yes B&W are the "other" horn loaded speakers, but in quite a different way. More & more of their drivers are using the Nautilus Tube design mounted behind the driver in what some say is a "horn". I don't understand the physics well enough to talk about it, so perhaps someone else will want to dive into this.

Heresys - Brich - Raw 1974 price = $248 (ea?) according to your price list. I bought mine in the summer of 1981 for $330 each if memory serves me right. Today the "standard finishes" are $1098/pr (598 each). Averages out to just over $100 price increase per decade (or about ten bucks a year). Does anyone know if that $248 was for a pair or for one?

It sounds like Audio King (Local name of the chain Ultimate Audio)in Woodbury, MN (suburb of Minneapolis/St Paul) is much like Ovation in Indianapolis. Klipsch speakers are always in terrible beat-up condition. Have recently only been connected to poor quality equipment in a second-rate listening room with extremely thin, unshielded electrical wire. I have also noted this at the Audio King in Edina, MN (another suburb). The Audio King in Minnetonka (a western suburb) had the RF series speakers in their high end listening room, but were not connected to the video system, or to the Krell amps(although the top of the line Adcom preamp and amp sounded great with these speakers). The Ultimate Audio (same chain) in Cedar Rapids, Iowa also had the same problem. Poor connections, difficult to connect to any quality amplification, poor listening environment. Klipsch should stop handing out the "Authorized dealer" monniker to any dog that comes by, and start establishing some standards by which their speakers must be demoed under. Klipsch speakers are the most revealing of flaws in electronics as almost any speaker on the market. If you connect Klipsch speakers and Bose speakers to the same electronics using poor gauge wire, you will be able to hear the distortions caused by the poor electronics and wire better through the Klipsch speakers. If someone with little knowledge of sound equipment were atempting to buy speakers, he might interpret this information as the Bose speakers sounding better, when in reality, the Bose speakers only hid the interference better. Please Klipsch, at least require quality wire in the path from sound source to speaker. Perhaps Klipsch could bolster this program by allowing people on this BBS with at least 100 posts or so, to report if a local dealer is not fulfilling its part of the agreement. a report would sponsor a review by the factory of this "authorized dealer". Just a thought.

The local snooty Hi Fi store that I sometimes stop at just to see how outrageous HIFI can get (perhaps the only store in the world with the full line of ATMA-Sphere tube amps - www.atma-sphere.com). They had their full line of Acurus products on sale at DEEPLY reduced rates. I don't remember the numbers, but at least 40% off seemed to be the norm (and this place NEVER has sales..til now).

I don't disagree with you too much about the B&W line JoshT. Except that I don't feel that the Klipsch RF-3 or RF-5 line compares well to the B&W CDM7s (nor probably the N803,or N804 though I'm not sure I can stretch the comparison that far pricewise). I agree that Klipsch has a good value to cost ratio in comparison to the B&W speakers. I just feel like Klipsch has dropped the ball in the $1500 to $1800 per pair speaker range (a range that I think Klipsch could dominate with the right speaker). The RF-3 and RF-5 in my opinion haven't approached that level of sound quality, the Heresys are not a good solution for the modern mass market in that range (and are not carried by a lot of stores), and the Synergy series has never sounded very good. "..but they do not strike me as superior to the Reference or Legend series." As I'm sure you noticed, Klipsch no longer makes the any of the Legend series or the Reference speaker that I preferred. As for a set of RB-xxx speakers and a single or Dual sub: The combo could be great! Or it could suck. Have you ever tried matching subs to speakers? Especially using someone else's equipment (amps, CD player, etc) and wires, in their listening room. If you do, be sure to spare no expense on the crossover in the sub. It also sometimes helps to stick with the same brand of speaker/sub. As we know, Klipsch is not well liked for their subs (especially earlier models). Velodyne and Sunfire have nice models. Also, subs are quite often ported. I don't like the sound of ported subs (too many extra vibrations). I'd rather have a sealed sub, or a horn loaded sub. Forunately the RP-3s already had this taken care of. The sealed sub was attached to the rest of speaker, and matched by the ears of the folks at Klipsch (who I guess I can still trust somewhat). I currently have a KSW-12 sub that I purchased to run with my Heresys. Helped the bass of the Heresys, but it still doesn't make a smooth a transition from the sub to the rest of the speaker like the RP-3. No, I'll not be replacing my RP-3s until Klipsch makes something in about the same price range that IS better, or I will find another brand.

I like the way you think Mr Blorry

Hmm..this thread was started a long time ago, but here's my 2 cents: I don't know much about Yamaha amps. I always try to steer the demos I hear toward the Denon, Adcom (totally different from the Denon, but I'm familiar with it) Rotel or Krell amps. What I do know is that when the local Klipsch dealer moved the RF-3s out of the "Hi End" demo room where they were connected to a top of the line Adcom system through Monster cables, they sounded one He11 of a lot better than now. Now they are connected to any number of components through a digital switching device. The wires at the back are small gauge electrical wire (the type you would wire a light switch with). I would say that the problem is more likely to be speaker wires than equipment (though if you don't like a particular piece of equipment's sonic qualities, no speaker wire will cure that failing). Old speaker wires become oxidized over time. Oxidization creates more resistance in the wire. Furthermore, certain frequencies can be more greatly affected than others. It could be that your speaker wires had these problems all along, it just took the efficiency and clarity of a Klipsch speaker to point it out to you. New Zip cord will work fine for a while and is a cheap fix. If you find that this helps, you may want to invest in more expensive speaker cables. When a local dealer let me take a pair of what was almost their most expensive cables home for an audition, I was stunned by the difference they made (I had been using Monster 12ga. wire). My amp sounded more powerful. All frequencies seemed clearer and well defined. Imaging was improved. I'll never go back to normal audio grade cable again.

With Klipsch speakers, super-expensive speaker cables are not as important as it is with less efficient speakers. I bought my MIT Terminator2 Bi-Wires for my B&W speakers. These cables (about an inch in diameter) helped my B&Ws tremendously. In fact the difference was jaw dropping. My 85 WPC Dennon suddenly sounded much more powerful. Imaging was much better, and the clarity was just incredible. With my Klipsch speakers connected, the same is true, but to a lesser degree (especially the amp sounding a lot more powerful through generic wire as compared to the MITs). I would still recommend a good quality speaker wire that rejects interference well, and has some technique( real or imagined) for preserving the impedance from one end of the wire to the other (Cardas, Kimber Cable, Audio Quest, Straight Wire, etc). Hardware store stuff is good for short term use, but generally does not reject interference to audio signals well. It also oxidizes quickly, causing the wire to act more and more like a resistor. A well known online stereo equipment retailer out of Michigan who also distributes a catalog has a large selection of speaker wire. Some of it in bulk. I ordered my MITs from there and paid less than half of what my local HiFI store was asking for the same stuff. Next stop...power conditioners..

At the risk of turning this into a B&W forum, I would have to say that anyone who cannot hear that these speakers have some very good points to them, are certainly not listening. As for the RB-5 outperforming the Heresy...not a chance. In my opinion, build and sound quality are infinitely better on the Heresy or at least the ones I'm familiar with (its been several years since I've seen them in the stores, so I have to compare with my own 1981 Heresys). Don't get me wrong, the RB-5 is impressive as a bookshelf speaker. Except for the bass sub, it has the same drivers and crossover points as the RP-5 speakers. They just have a totally different sound than a Heresy. Another thing I'd like to bring to this thread is that I have found that I like the sound of dual subwoofers. Until a buddy of mine built two homemade subs (each with two 15" drivers mounted in a plywood cabinet that is very similar to the KPT-MCM Grand sub), I thought that sound below a certain frequency was essentially omnidirectional. Because of this, I thought that the sound of one sub was exactly the same as the sound of two subs. I was wrong. There is nothing like the sound of dual subs. So I would like to add dual subs (integrated, or not) to my list of goals for Klipsch when they design a new speaker.

Yeeow! Thanks for sharing the link. I'm takin' these back to the lab...

BobG - Thanks for correcting my spelling (and perhaps diction too) yet again (Van der Steen). Its good to hear from you in this post. Avantgarde? I haven't heard any of them yet either, but I can't imagine that they have anything that the K-horn doesn't already have, except for a little less kick in the guts, but deeper frequency response on the bass end. The attraction of the Magnepan's, Van der Steens, and to a lesser degree B&W is that they do something that no Klipsch speaker has ever done (at least none that I have listened to). They display the texture of the music. Of course, with certain music, and more accurately, certain recordings, the music having texture is not much of a problem. But even for someone like me who does not care much for classical music, hearing the texture of the sound of the bow resonating against a viola string is something incredibly stirring, and something that I have never heard duplicated by a Klipsch speaker. Yes those speakers take juice (even my B&W 602 sounded incredibly unlifelike until I connected a 200 watt amp to them through MIT Terminator2 speaker cables..they wer finally almost Klipsch-like, but with a hint of the high-end B&W sound). BobG also makes a good point that a lot of dealers no longer carry the Heritage series (perhaps a reason why I feel Klipsch is slipping). If I had the room, I would start demanding the heritage series too. Until then, I dream that Klipsch will offer a Heritage quality speaker in a physical package similar to some of their latest offerings, in a price range just beyond the Heresy (something I thought they were trying to do with the Reference series). In the interim, I hope that Klipsch will start demanding that their authorized dealers use proper gague wire to demonstrate Klipsch speakers (at least the Reference and Heritage series) in a decent listening environment. I think they also need to demand that the retailers replace broken speaker grilles on display speakers (my local store has at least three pairs of Klipsch speakers with broken grilles..funny how those Martin-Logans in the other room never seem to suffer similar damage).