Audible Nectar

Good audio reproduction begins with 1)speakers and 2)amplification. You cannot overspend or overdo in these two areas IMHO. I'll add that a good sub with high quality amplification is a great asset as well. If you get these things working well together, you are well on your way to audio bliss. These are the pricey upgrades though. So what "upgrades" are cost effective, you might ask? A basic overhaul of system cables help many, especially if they are using the cheap, thin cables furnished by component manufacturers. Believe it or not, many use those cables (and these aren't even good enough to debate quality issues - it's an obvious weak link). Even the cost effective Radio Shack gold tips, and 16 to 12 ga. monster cable are a good upgrade for these people. For those with better systems, let your ears be your guide - many do report improvements with relatively inexpensive cable upgrades. Most of all, just checking the system over for any obvious weak links or connections, then replacing any worn or cheap cables, helps. The other audio investment is $40 at Radio Shack for the analog SPL meter. You can use it to tweak the speaker levels on your home theater, and measure the acoustic response of your room. If your room presents particular acoustic problems, this can help you solve those. Speaker placement and room characteristics can be changed to smooth out those problems, and the SPL meter helps with this. ------------------ First we Rock, then we Roll!

I went to the game on Sunday, just on a whim. Tickets were abundant, and cheap (as Super Bowl tickets go - $400 face on all seats, many were available for less on Bourbon St. on Sunday - the brokers took a beating). This was the biggest Super Bowl upset since Namath's guarantee in Super Bowl III. As an NFL fan, I could not ask for more (although overtime would have been wild). What a game!!! ------------------ First we Rock, then we Roll!

The nice thing about Klipsch is that you can get away with that amplification until you can afford better. While you are saving, keep an eye out for those Klipsch that are on your wish list. They will turn up, in time. You are correct about the center channel - you will need a replacemnt to match the new speakers. Be especially on the lookout for an Academy (the hard to find magnetically shielded center channel) - it is the best match for those midline heritage models (Forte/Chorus/Cornwall). If you can get one for under $300, grab it and store it until you find the Forte/Chorus you are looking for. I found one two months ago for $265 - mint, OBM, and delivered from an audio dealer (it was $400 new). You could use a single Heresy as well, but it is not shielded. These show up occasionally on sites where used audio is sold. I drive distances to pick up speakers. This solves two problems: I know what they are before I leave with them, and my lack of trust in handling with shippers. Look for 'em like you want 'em, cause the rest of us Heritage addicts do. ------------------ First we Rock, then we Roll!

Did you buy it from a store with a defective exchange policy? I would want to see another machine of the same model, to see if it is persistent in the model, or if it is just your machine. Many retail outlets will swap it out if it is defective - it is a prerequisite with anything that I purchase new. I would be curious if this problem shows up when playing a videotape. When you were switching from video inputs 1 through 4, were you playing the DVD through the Sony Wega as well? (I'm assuming the source being played through the component video was a DVD machine.) If you can play a black area of a videotape (maybe the end credits or something) through the video 1-4 on the TV and see if you still have the line, I'd say it is the TV. If this problem cannot be shown to exist with the VCR as described above, then another option would be to hook up your DVD to another TV of the exact same model. It may be more worthwhile to take the DVD to another Sony of the same model, rather than switching out the TV's in your home, to determine if your TV is indeed defective. If you bought it mail order, this could be a problem, unless you find a dealer in your area that has the same Sony Wega on the floor. The point is to see if the TV shows this problem with multiple sources, something other than your DVD. It could also be that the TV and DVD just don't agree for some reason, but that is not likely. ------------------ First we Rock, then we Roll!

I own a Velodyne CT150 sub that I purchased new two months ago. It is essentially the same as the CHT150, but still floating around at closeout prices - I paid $535 shipped to me (and this beast weighs 80 pounds). It is an excellent HT sub for that money. It is quiet when it is supposed to be, hits like a ton of bricks on movie soundtracks. Good set of controls. I have a set of Cornwall IIs as mains, so I adjust the crossover for 2 channel to around 45-50hz or so, to blend with the Cornwalls. Review in a nutshell for 2 channel music: fair. It doesn't go real low, drops off below 30 hz, some output from 20-25 hz, but not really enough low oomph for me. Still good for $535 though. I'll keep it for now, then upgrade to an HGS or an SVS kit of some kind. The good subs cost $$$, and true high performance bass also needs lots of power. I did not get enough sub with this purchase, but I only spent $535. The subs I am looking at cost $1500-2000, reduced by what I can get for my velo when the time to sell comes. This is not really a "musical" subwoofer, unless you do rock/dance pop stuff or lots of HT. ------------------ First we Rock, then we Roll!

You need to hear the Heritage stuff before you start spending money. The best bet is to listen to other forum members' systems whenever possible. You have an open invite to listen to mine if you have occasion to come through the Quad Cities. Ask around to see if forum members are located in areas your travels take you, or near where you live. Many of our forum members open their homes to other members to show off systems and to listen to those Heritage that you normally canot demo. The time and effort will be justified. Trust me when I say that you don't know what you are missing. Once you find out, getting that sound will become a priority. Which model to select depends on how much speaker cabinet you can live with, your budget, and what you like. I own Cornwall II's. I would tell you that of the specific models that we have been discussing, the Cornwalls are excellent - some prefer the older Cornwalls with the alnico magnets, primarily built in the seventies. Either the original or II is a winner though, and a great choice as a main speaker pair. Cornwall cabinets are large, some wives don't care for them, but my wife loves the large oak cabinets. The Chorus models (which I like to call the Cornwall's baby brother) will keep up with the Cornwalls output, with a smaller footprint. The Cornwall has the edge in "slam", the Chorus, especially the Chorus II, is "tighter" bass. Both models are impressive. If you like your KG4's, prepare to get addicted The Forte and Forte II are smaller than the aforementioned Chorus/Cornwalls, and a slight step down in performance. Still very good, though, and well worth considering. The Chorus/Cornwalls do what the Fortes do, just better. The Forte has a cabinet size that almost anyone can live with, there are many very happy Forte owners on this forum. The Heresys are great speakers in a near bookshelf size. They are excellent, but they really need a good subwoofer to get the low end. Since you are building an HT, this is a viable option. However, you will want to select the subwoofer with care - you will want an accurate, musical sub. These models are the "middle" of the Heritage line - there are also the Lascalas, Belle Klipsch, and the flagship Klipschorns. If you can afford them, they are all great speakers, but carry heftier price tags. Listen to these if you can, if for no other reason than to hear the best Klipsch has built. All of these were made available in an array of wood finishes. Look in the product section of this website under "classic" to get specs, cabinet sizes, and other info on the speakers no longer made. Purchasing and pricing info: These speakers are currently out of production (except the Heresy II), but that does not mean that you can't get them. Lots of older Klipsch change hands through this forum, and the internet is a great tool to find the Klipsch we so desire. Don't sweat the fact that they are used - Klipsch last for literally decades - there are Klipsch from the fifties still playing great. They are simple, solid, low maintenance structures that may last longer than you. Prices: I'll try to give general ranges. Typically, half of the new price is a good guideline for a set in average cosmetic condition. You can pay more for sets in good condition, less for those in not as good of condition, and sometimes you will get lucky and the seller doesn't know what they are worth. Ebay tends to draw the highest prices, at least in those few cases where there are several aggressive bidders going for a highly desired pair. Heresy $350 - $1100: $500 pairs are commonly available, certain sets get high dollar, especially the seventies vintage with alnico magnets. Forte $400 - $900 Chorus $450 - $1200 Cornwall $500 - 1500+, the Cornwall is very popular right now. $1000 per pair for a good set is common. A set sold on ebay several weeks ago for $1850 (seventies vintage, immaculate condition, excellent presentation by the seller). This is an extreme example, $1200 for a good set is fair, and obtainable. Many sell for $700-900, I got mine for $700, in near mint shape. These speakers will outperform anything out there currently sold new, dollar for dollar, even at the high side of the price scale. Even used, they are a great audio bargain. Check the want ads, used audio web sites, estate sales, garage sales, flea markets, anywhere that they may turn up. Persistance pays big dividends if you like Klipsch Heritage. I'll drive a full days drive to get a good pair, they are that much worth the hassle. Happy searching! ------------------ First we Rock, then we Roll!

I own an Outlaw 750 amp and I am very pleased with it. The reviews for this piece are right on target - worth every penny at $1099 retail. Thats $220 per channel of high quality amplification. It sounds quite good using an HK AVR75 receiver as pre/pro, and should improve when I upgrade to a true prepro (likely the Outlaw 950 when it is released). Speakers are Cornwall II's as mains, Academy center channel, and Quintets as rears for now (really inadequate, will be upgraded to Chorus or Fortes when I find an oak set near me for a fair price). I use it both ways, for 2 channel music as well as HT, and feel that my amplifier needs for this system are solved - I do not forsee needing an upgrade anytime soon. Much more than I really need, just the way I like it. The Acurus amps are good deals now too, as they were recently discontinued by Klipsch/Mondial (they still back up the line though - not to worry). I don't recall what boa12 wants for his 200x5, but it is worth looking into. It will be a bargain for the quality of the unit. If you are happy with the processor functions of the 1050 receiver, it should be a good sounding combo. I am opting for the Outlaw 950 pre/pro, to be released in the next month or two, ($899) which will offer a more updated surround package, particularly the DPL II, plus digital ins and an output (just something I happen to need). That package is slightly out of your stated budget, so the 1050 might be a good option for you right now. Outlaw gives a $50 discount if you buy both 1050/750, whether or not you buy them at the same time. Another option for you might be the Harman Kardon Signature pre/pro, which can be found now for under $500. Factory refurbished units show up on ubid (and you do get full H/K factory warranty with ubid). Good deal for an under $500 unit. Make sure you get a warranty if you go this route (especially with the units on ebay - make sure the warranty is good by verifying through H/K). It's a good idea to have valid warranty for prepros these days, as they are as much computer as they are audio component. I'm not done yet though. Let's talk about your speakers. I couldn't help but re-read your comment about them: "I've noticed some weaknesses with music (esp rock) at higher volume levels--loses the clarity and instruments seem to run together. It doesn't sound bad, just not the awesome depth and clarity of my jazz collection. The higher volumes seem to bring out the flaws in any system." This could be several things, as my own system was built specifically to address this issue. How loud do you listen to rock and roll? Or anything else for that matter? Most systems "break up" when you crank up the rock and roll, but Klipsch do rock and roll as well as anything out there. I wonder if you are asking too much of the KG4's. I've found that the Chorus and Cornwalls are excellent in this regard - they play LOUD AND CLEAR. Concert level sound, especially with the Outlaw. Heresys are good, too, just lacking in the low end somewhat (ideal with a subwoofer though). My system is louder than I can really stand (again the way I like it). The lesser model speakers in the Klipsch Heritage line didn't really cut it for rock and roll, at least to my ears. You might look at the Reference speakers too, but Heritage Klipsch can still be had used for less than the larger Reference models. I'm not trying to give your KG4's a hard time, they are great speakers, especially for the size and price, but I wonder if speakers are the more logical upgrade for you. IMHO, the best bang for the buck in audio is your speakers. No other purchase will make as much difference as the speaker purchase does. If you upgrade your mains, the KG4's could still find a place in your system as surrounds. If you get into a Forte, Chorus or Chorus II, Cornwall or Cornwall II (or any higher end heritage) I 100% guarantee you improvement, even with the H/K receiver that you have now. These speakers will rock your world, literally. HT + Klipsch Heritage = Bliss. As close to the true cinema sound that my budget can achieve. It's damn close. Another point about rock and roll is that recordings can be less than desirable. If the recording stinks, you are just amplifying that junk, and it won't sound good at high volumes. Good audio gear exposes those weaknesses, but I wouldn't want it any other way. Sorry for the long winded post (whew). The short version: Are you truly happy with the KG4's as mains? If you are, you might consider a better pre/pro/amp combo. I still believe that you can do better on your main speakers and get more, instant, bang for the buck right now. The amp upgrade will be a good idea in either case, but the speakers will make more of a difference. Good luck choosing P.S. - If you do upgrade your mains, you might put the subwoofer purchase off until the mains are in your system - there's no way that a ksw-12 would keep up with my Cornwalls. You'll want a unit that will keep up with your mains. The KSW-12 may be OK with the current speaker package - you should hold off until you know for sure. ------------------ First we Rock, then we Roll! This message has been edited by dndphishin on 01-28-2002 at 04:59 PM

Good decision, Seb. Your speakers are the one place where the dollars spent delivers the most benefits. Those RF-7s are highly sensitive - they will work fine with a more modest HT receiver until you can get what you really want. You just avoided making the biggest mistake most people make when buying audio - they skimp on the speaker budget. The beauty of your choice of the RF-7 lies in the fact that you'll have a speaker good enough to justify spending more money on better quality amps/preamps/source units down the line. The upgrade bug may become tough to fight off, but the sonic benefits will be heard. I'm of the belief that just because you are mainly using your system for HT versus audio, that is no reason not to buy the RF-7. They are more desirable in either case. I think you will like them. I like them too, but I have the Heritage bug (Cornwall II's). I was impressed with the RF-7 demos though. Good luck with the demos. ------------------ First we Rock, then we Roll!

*** "friends don't let friends buy bose" *** And the other oft quoted line - "No highs, no lows, it must be Bose" True. ------------------ First we Rock, then we Roll!

Mike, that's where I'm headed with my HT. I have a set of Cornwall II's as mains - and I want a set of Chorus to use as surrounds (same tweeter/squawker as Cornwall II). I agree that the Chorus is an excellent alternative to the Cornwalls, similar driver size and type with a smaller footprint. They are certainly overlooked by most, and that's OK with me - means that I won't need to pay 1800+ to get them. ------------------ First we Rock, then we Roll!

Well, I've not yet had an open opportunity to publicly disagree with The Ears, but there's a first time for everything! I'll put Corn - "Bread" - Walls up against just about anything out there for under $3000. Unless it is a larger Heritage, or a select few other horns that I like - I'll keep the Cornwalls. I've heard the RF-7s too, and while I do believe that they are Klipsch's best offering outside the Heritage line, they just don't stack up to my ear. I'm into the Heritage horn sound, and speakers are "personal preference" - so I do not expect to change "The Ears" mind. That said Rob, you owe it to yourself to give them BOTH a listen and see how they stack up to your ear. Don't buy RF-7s until you have listened to both the Cornwalls and the RF-7s. Then, let your ears be your guide. Plus, you CAN get Cornwalls for less than that $1850 set that went on ebay a week or so ago...($1200/pr is still very doable on the open market,) but they were still worth it! I love big Heritage speakers in HT as well. If you have the room, you need not let some fast talking salesman tell you that Heritage speakers are not suitable for HT! So, to answer your question: Would I trade in my Cornwalls for a pair of RF-7s? When Hell freezes over ------------------ First we Rock, then we Roll!

Rob...maybe she's a bit "out of phase" ------------------ First we Rock, then we Roll!

Oh yeah!!!! You stole 'em buddy - especially for $499. If you don't want them....I'll come down to Tennessee and take 'em off your hands. Once you go with the Klipsch Heritage line, you become addicted ------------------ First we Rock, then we Roll!

Just to the right of the 75 ohm FM coax is the "sw" jack......that's the subwoofer pre out. It connects to the Samson. ------------------ First we Rock, then we Roll!

Very interesting, mobile. This is now on my list of things to do. Now if TBrennan gets one of those horn listening sessions going with a horn/tube combo, that will be a good start. ------------------ First we Rock, then we Roll!

OUCH!!!!! Holy big $$$$$ Batman! Give the seller credit though...how many Klipsches available for sale - and that old - have you seen with the original boxes? Bonus on the paperwork too. Plus, if he's hardcore enough to do that, you can figure he took care of the speakers. I believe these are the desirable vintage (alnico) - they were alnico in 1976, were they not? Too much cash for me - at least for a set of Heresy's - but someone will be thrilled with them, I'm sure. Better get my Choruses soon, before they get insanely priced too. ------------------ First we Rock, then we Roll! This message has been edited by dndphishin on 01-18-2002 at 08:20 PM

Mike brings up a question that's been nagging me recently with all of this talk about tubes - I've been wondering if tubes would work for me given my rock and roll tastes. I like to turn it up occasionally with some old school AC/DC, Rush, Stevie Ray Vaughn, etc... and I'm curious if tubes are really made for the classical/jazz listener instead of the rock taste. My Cornwalls have blown away any theory of classical vs. rock speaker because it plays it all well (as should any good piece of audio gear). However, I gather that tube amps are more limited in thier maximum output vs. SS amps. Just how limited are they? Can I achieve sonic glory with tubes given my propensity to crank it up on occasion? (100-105 db should about do it). If I ever run into a deal I can't refuse on a set of khorns, I'd consider trying something in the tube realm - All of this talk has me very curious. I've not heard tubes before - at least not in an environment where I would know if they would be suitable for my use. ------------------ First we Rock, then we Roll! This message has been edited by dndphishin on 01-18-2002 at 07:38 PM

I concur with fini - sell them here, there are many appreciative buyers here. Looks like you have a lead already. I wouldn't ship them....they are too expensive and cannot be replaced. If you have an issue with shipping damage, the best you can do is to file an insurance claim - you can get the money back, but the buyer still won't have the speakers. As a buyer, I will not have these big speakers shipped either - I would pick them up - I trust my own hands more than a shipper, plus I get to see the speakers first. I use e-bay to find stuff too, but when it comes to Klipsch, this board really helps out. Generally prices are fair here, and the members here on the BBS appreciate the sales offers here. Keep em in the family!! ------------------ First we Rock, then we Roll!

I've had a similar idea. I'm thinking about doing the same with a yet to be acquired set of Chorus or Fortes, for the same reason - to get the tweeter/squawkers to play over my couch. I located nice square oak boxes at Oak Express that would fit the bill well - they are about 16" square. ------------------ First we Rock, then we Roll! This message has been edited by dndphishin on 01-18-2002 at 09:14 AM

Somewhere in the range of 50-80 hz should work okay. The idea here is to have the subwoofer pick up where your RB-5's drop off. My guess is that the response of the RB-5's are not flat down to 48hz, but should be at a slightly higher crossover point, say 50-80hz. Let your ears be your guide - however, if you really want to get this right, you can buy an analog SPL meter at radio shack ($40) and a disc that does test sweeps (such as Avia Guide to Home Theater, also about $40). You play a "test sweep" from 20-200 hz, for example, and find out how the RB-5's respond to your listening environment with the meter. Many of us who have home theater systems use these because we need to balance 5 channels plus a sub. This makes it easy to find out just how to set up the sub. Also, positioning of that sub and speakers will make a difference in response of the speaker, so the meter/test disc helps out there too. If all of this seems like overkill to you, you can do it by ear. ------------------ First we Rock, then we Roll!

I started out with the old suitcase/foldup job as a kid, then bought a Fisher rack system in high school (you know, one of those $600 systems with the slave cables and the cheap boomy speakers). I got a job selling audio while going to college, and learned about Klipsch. I first saw them in another audio store (Klipschorns) and I found out what high end audio was really all about...at least to my ears! I got "attached" to my buddy's Cornwall II's as well - I was simply amazed by their sound...but unfortunately started a twelve year period of dissatisfaction with my audio system (since it took me that long to get a pair of my own). I've got a set of Cornwall II's now, and I'm finally happy....well, almost. As soon as I get a set of Oak Chorus to complete the HT, then I'll be happy! ------------------ First we Rock, then we Roll!

BigBusa said: Personally I don't think the description of them sounds too spectacular. They're butt ugly too. I wouldn't bid a lot for them. _________________________________ I think that a bidder may not have to bid too much for them, because they are a bit ugly....but nothing someone with some woodworking skills couldn't improve upon. If the guts are good, and the price is right, jump on 'em. ------------------ First we Rock, then we Roll! This message has been edited by dndphishin on 01-17-2002 at 10:17 PM

Incoming!!!!!!! ------------------ First we Rock, then we Roll!

Try these two: Velodyne CT-150 ($500) Paradigm PW2200 ($700) If you do try one of these, make sure it is returnable. If you can try one in your home at no risk, it costs you nothing but time if it doesn't work out. If the extra coin for the new one doesn't seem worth it, you can just take it back for a refund. Both are good "bang for the buck" units. ------------------ First we Rock, then we Roll!

Thanks, belial. I would definitely look at a subwoofer upgrade. I'll echo colin's comment that the way to get that firm low end is through a high quality subwoofer and large power amp combo. Truly good bass improves the overall performance of the HT system, but requires a good sub/amp combo. Many subs come with the amp built in, some you go separate (such as SVS). A good upgrade will cost a fair amount of dough....$1500-3000 or more is not uncommon for a good sub kit. I recently purchased a Velodyne CT-150 (and at $500 delivered is a really good deal) but is really not up to snuff with the rest of my HT (Klipsch Cornwall II/Academy center, 5 channel Outlaw amp @165 p/c). Now that I've taken the leap into powered subs I've discovered that truly good performance is pricey and only offered by a select few manufacturers. That will be my next upgrade. Check out the powered subwoofers section of this forum for more info on the truly heavy hitters in the subwoofer realm. Some models getting high acclaim over there are: Velodyne HGS 15 and HGS 18 All SVS models Klipsch RSW-15 Good Luck! ------------------ First we Rock, then we Roll!