RoboKlipsch

That's great to hear! A few panels in the right places is starting to improve the clarity. Hopefully your lady will hear it too and understand/appreciate what you're working on. The question earlier about moving the couch came directly from knowing that would be the case about the back wall. Moving the couch forward would achieve a similar and likely superior experience, but there's compromises with a living room. You're doing it right by treating problem areas that can't be fixed otherwise (like moving things). Sitting anywhere along the left wall couch would also be markedly improved with panels absorbing those early reflections. The right surround would be improved a lot (potentially) by moving it to the hard wall just beneath the staircase, a few feet forward from the back wall. You would want the left surround to match the distance roughly but both be high enough that nobody would get sound directly in their ears. This would be a test but I think there would be a huge improvement still. You might expect surrounds to only work behind or to the side but they do work well still a bit in front of the listening position. In your current layout you will not gain anything with back surrounds. This is coming from a guy that loves his back surrounds. I want you to have back surrounds. But they won't work with the couch on the back wall. Move the side surrounds forward, and if you can manage even a few feet behind the couch, back surrounds would work amazingly well then. With the side surrounds in front of the listening position, the back surrounds would really anchor the sweeping surround effects that begin slightly in front of where you sit. But this won't work without moving the couch forward so the back surrounds have a bit of room to work.

I did not personally follow Geddes in my quest for even bass but here was one of the studies: https://mehlau.net/audio/multisub_geddes/

LOL oops. That's what happens when I'm sober

Yes the RP250Fs would be great with the RP250C. If you want to pay close to half, I've got RF52iis and an RC52ii for sale too at $400 total. I'm in Chicago. They are the model that came right before and imo, are about 95% the same. I like the RPs just a bit more but would challenge you to hear the difference. RK

BUMP UPDATE: MEMORIAL DAY SALE! To a forum member, $275 for the near-perfect pair of Cherry RF52iis. $125 for the near-perfect RC52ii (black). I will not go lower, I will keep these at these costs if there is no interest! I can only say that you cannot find a better pair of fronts for $275, anywhere. I'm not sure why I don't deploy them as back surrounds but will if nobody else wants them I'm happy to part with them to a forum member at these costs, but will not go lower, prices are firm!

I can't tell the height but would consider moving that right surround to the wall beneath the staircase if that would be above ear level. On the right side there may be less need to absorb the reflections with the open areas, that is helpful in reducing the # of panels. EIther that is one huge room or a really small surround...or both! Can you hear the surrounds with movie playback?

If you can, take a picture of that staircase area by that surround. The staircase can help as far as reducing some reflections but staircases (unless carpeted, and even when carpeted), are notorious for major ringing. We can look at that too potentially. You're doing it all right so far! With regards to the SBIR, save that for when you have a UMIK later. It's speaker boundary interference, related to when a speaker is close to a boundary it has reflections that sum with the original source....so for example the main speaker at the front wall will project sound at you but also the reflection off that front wall will do the same just a ms or 2 afterwards....anyway, save that for later.

Someone mentioned earlier in this thread or another one that they liked your sub graph, that it better supported the arguments going back and forth with data. Geddes did in fact suggest that a HT enthusiast try putting their largest subwoofer in a corner, almost inevitably a front corner, and then use one or more additional subs (I seem to recall him using 3 in his case-study) to fill in where there are issues within the room. In suggesting that he is in fact saying that having different subs is not only practical but usually relatively straight-forward to integrate. Sometimes the "rules" or best practices can become mantras that get in the way of having a deeper understanding of a concept (imo). It may be a best practice to only use all vented subs, or sealed subs, it may be a best practice to use all identical subs, it may be a best practice to put them in a certain place in a room. But none of those best practices are anything more than guidelines. They provide insightful shortcuts and ideals.

With regards to multiple subs, there is theory and then there is reality. Reality is that it can and will work, if thought out, perfectly. It's been proven over and over in the real world. In my main HT theater, I have Ultimax 18s in big boxes and Legacy 15s in medium size boxes (4cft is medium now in my world :)) They integrate perfectly and seamlessly, with a ruler flat response from 10hz to 100hz, absolutely no phase issues, across the entire couch (8ft across). How I got there -- and how DDJ got his setup where it is, and everybody else who has done this, is through an exceptionally large amount of testing and retesting. It's a challenge, and one that can be solved. I will not ever move my 4 subs in the theater ever, unless I move or need to change the setup for some reason. It's that good at this point imo. CEC (moderator here) imo is perhaps the most astute I've come across here regarding multiple subs. It's as he has said -- more complicated, and has the possibility of creating a worse setup, if done incorrectly. But when it is right, it's the BOMB! Changing the sub positions and delays is a seemingly endless process but one if followed that leads to Nirvana Measurement is beyond critical to do this...and I agree with many above, REW at it's most basic level is actually plug and play. I took measurements within 10 minutes of setup and was able to use the basic functions decently within an hour or two. Over a period of weeks and lots of measurements and reading, I have learned what most of REW does, each tab another exploration down the rabbit hole of acoustics.... This is an 8 foot couch, 5 measurements across the ear level listening position, and then 3 more towards the front of the couch one in each seat. The same positions I use when running Audyssey. These 4 subs require ZERO PEQ, only Audyssey runs to bump up one small broad dip in the lower bass area. It can be done!

I have a nice used RC52ii for sale if you are interested, PM me. I would recommend this speaker to match the RBs (which I also own) even moreso than the RP250C. The RP rocks but is a newer model that isn't an exact match for the RP....much easier to get a cheaper used matching center imo (whether it's mine or another one). RK

There's really no way to know for sure except to turn it on and test it. I very much agree with WVU that you ordered a new item and it's not new. If you had to sell it right now, would you be OK showing someone the scratch or would you rather have it perfect?

No problem. The UMIK is actually super easy to use, as is REW. There are a lot of features in REW but you don't need to use them all right away. The only things you want to learn to start really is how to take a basic measurement, and how to read an SPL graph and a waterfall decay graph. Those two things will tell you pretty much everything you want to know at this point. With a room that big, it would take a massive amount of treatment to really fine tune it. But with that said, a minimal amount of treatment can and will dramatically improve the sound space. A few things to consider now: > Can you move the couch forward, even just a bit? A foot? 2 feet? I know that how it looks is key, it's just a question. The back wall is commonly a place where bass builds up. > Is the back right surround (in the picture) there for a reason or could it be on the side wall? With a couch that far back, even if moved up a bit, you will need to treat some of the back wall in order to improve clarity and speed the decay back there. With the couch that close to the left wall, you will want to treat some of that wall where the couch is in order to improve the clarity there. In doing so you may also be treating the side wall reflection on that side. Front wall treatment will likely only be minimal or none, due to the seating position being so far back. If the right surround can be moved to the side that will further help and reduce the need for much if any front wall treatment. For the front wall to really be a key issue in that space, either the back speakers would be pointing at it (which causes interference) or you would need to be sitting much closer. If nobody usually sits closer than the couch than the distance from the front speakers to the back wall and then back again is far past the point of being an early reflection. To go along with that line of thinking, if the speakers up front sound good and are far from the front wall, there will be almost no issues with SBIR, which can sometimes be a problem with front speaker placement. Anyway, that's my initial thoughts from the diagram without measurements. The 10' couch may need treatment all along that wall in order to reduce the strong reflections right behind your head, same for the back wall. The key thing here is we are at least initially talking about EARLY reflections, not all reflections. A room that big with high walls would take a huge amount of treatment to truly tame fully. But the goal I assume is to vastly improve the sound overall and greatly imrpove the clarity of dialog. I can see say 4 or 5 panels on the left wall, perhaps 5 or 6 on the back wall, and then a few on the right wall to limit early reflections especially front the front right speaker (but all of them, really). Last thought for now...that discussion about panel thickness comes back into play. A 2" Roxul panel will do a great job of hugely improving the dialog and reducing the powerful reflections from the left and back walls. A 4" panel will go further in absorbing some of the bass that is lingering in the room. If only a few 4" panels are to be used, that back left corner is key, as would be the back right corner (if available). If neither can be used then the 4" panels would go best on the back wall (but would be best in all locations). If you can mount them a few inches off the wall, they work better, but again that's not the key here the key is a good panel on the wall at all.

Buy a umik for about 90bucks and use REW its terrific

True but mine never made that noise and every rc52 has this potential issue so its hard to figure

How "bad" a room is can often be defined roughly by clapping very loud (one clap at a time). You hear "ringing" when you do this in a bad room, and the worse the room the more the ringing. I would guess, depending upon where you stand when you clap, you have a pretty serious ring and the sound of the ring itself may be smearing. Go into a different room now and clap and hear the difference. it can be incredible to hear the contrast. I've spent a lot of time in the last 9 months treating one of my theaters, I would be happy to share what I learned. As far as building the panels, I recently built another set using Roxul 60, and I will tell you in the room you are describing, you want to use as many 4" thick panels as possible. if a compromise needs to be reached, then 2" is the minimum but I strongly recommend 4". There's a lot of long explanations to things but the short version is, when treating a room and doing it minimally (as in, not using 20+ panels to really go at it) you need to trap the bass frequencies at least as much as the higher frequencies. To do so you need thicker panels. 3" is the bare minimum and 4" is really kind of the standard for what is often called a "broadband absorber." If you could share a sketch of the room, or some pictures, it would go a long way towards figuring out the basics of treatment. The most common issues to treat, of roughly equal importance are: 1) Early reflections. This is what hits your ears right after the direct sound from the speakers. Typically these are on the side walls between you and the source. They are also located, depending upon the room and layout, on the front wall, the back wall, the ceiling, and the floor. People often use a mirror test to gauge these, where a mirror is held flat against a wall and moved until the person sitting at the listening position can see the speaker. At roughly that point, there is an early reflection that should be treated. 2) Low frequency decay times. Bass traps, or really most often, broadband absorbers are used to reduce the decay time in the low frequency region. As much as you think you hear echoes and reflections of the higher tones (you do), the bass in the room is an even bigger killer of clarity and comfortable listening. Tell me you have only 2 panels to deploy without me knowing much else, I recommend you place them at the side wall early reflection points to absorb reflections in as many listening seats as possible (you may need 2 per side if there is a big listening area). Given only 2 I would again say I want 4" panels but if the wife won't have it, 2" is still OK (but misses out on absorbing the low end). I would then want to deploy as many broadband (4") absorbers as possible in other places, ideally some in the corners if the wife can allow it. Pictures or a sketch would help tremendously, having an idea what you can and can't change would help, and knowing how many panels you are building or think you could get into the room before the wife explodes would help too

Yes I did! But not with my RC52....which, I plan now to screw a 1/4in screw into the 2nd tilt adjust hole now I purchased an RSW15 from another forum member, and he had told me he didn't use the feet but instead had some hard rubber slabs that he put it on. Basically the same thing. Except...at medium volume and up, tones below around 30hz created a strong <fart> sound. So like any responsible adult I started a thread in Klipsch forum titled, why is my subwoofer farting? or something like that There is a port on the RC52, unlike the RSW15, which had a passive radiator instead of a port. So as a quasi-sealed sub, the RSW15 had a lot of pressure building up that came out through the screw holes for the feet. Your situation is unique and honestly I think you probably deserve a for achieving this. WIth a port on the RC52, it's impressive that you could listen loud enough to hear noise through the holes. Maybe there is something unique about having both holes open? Tape should work fine, anything should work fine as it has a port already and the pressure level should be low. It would almost seem that the screw holes have a flaw or something, a whistle maybe as I can't imagine you could hear sound from them...but you quite obviously did.

I love the what ifs its the fun of this hobby. Keep them coming. Wheres the infinite baffle ☺

Yes but i dont know how it works in Canada. If you have trouble finding one at a good cost consider a different brand of sub or even diy. Dont stress and dont overpay! Svs has some nice deals too.

Evan put the sub in your actual seat play some bass heavy music and move around the room listening where it sounds best. Put the sub there, go back to your seat and see if its better.

Same situation...if u can post some graphs you will know the visual problem. What does the two sound like comparatively? I would guess the measuring positions are compromising the overall sound and you need to use a tighter configuration but thats a guess without a lot of data. Also....try using Ausyssey flat if some highs seem to be missing

Dedicated home theater, these days where there's a new line of RF7s coming soon I would jump on a pair of cheap RF7s as my starting point. By the Fall when they release the new series, they will have a newly updated RF7, RC64 and R115SW. That will make all the current ones cheaper and available as many people look to upgrade. I might just try and get at least the RF7s and an RC64 (old versions) as soon as the new ones are out.

ROGUE ONE - Blu-Ray For the vast majority here in the forum Star Wars is an old, long running series of movies and while there have been some clever twists throughout the 7 movie arc that has been released to date, there is also a lot of formula that is followed that imo, is kind of old and boring for us...old and boring guys, lol Rogue One took a different tack, and demonstrated for me some of the reasons why a series needs to be changed from time to time. 1) Rogue did a far better job with the dialog than most any of the 7 original movies. It's clear, it's a bit more serious. 2) The plot of Rogue One, interesting as it sort of was, suffered from the fact that in the end, we knew what comes next -- bothersome. 3) The space battles were longer, lingering longer on the battles, the jumps to hyperspace, the spectacle of it -- MUCH improved over the 7 part series. 4) The ending of this movie, which I will not reveal of course, was terrific, and yet showed exactly what this movie was missing. The bottom line is simple -- throughout the entire Star Wars series, Luke Skywalker, Princess Leia, Yoda, and everybody else on the LIGHT side are boring characters that nobody really cares for. Oh I get it, we all root for Luke, but in the end, he "wants to be a space pilot!" and the dorkiness of it...is just there. They are kids films I know. The true wonderment of the Star Wars lies in the Dark Side, the "bad" characters, who teach all the real lessons of the series. In the last 5 minutes of Rogue One, they demonstrate what is both great and terrible about Rogue One and Star Wars in general -- the complete failure of the Producers to understand what fans really want TELL ME YOU DON'T WANT AN ENTIRE MOVIE SHOWING DARTH VADER, FROM THE END OF SITH, TO THE END OF ROGUE TELL ME YOU DON'T WANT MORE DARTH MAUL, THE BADDEST-*** BAD GUY THAT THEY MANAGED TO "SORT OF" (! ) KILL OFF IN 1. TELL ME THE FORCE POWERS, AND THE ABILITY TO DO AMAZING THINGS -- MOVE A FLEET OF SHIPS WITH THEIR MINDS -- IS SOMETHING YOU DON'T WANT? In the book following Return of the Jedi, Han and Leia have twins -- twins, not a son, and both are force powers. Gee I wonder who that could be, the other one? In the book -- there is a CLONE OF DARTH VADER...WHO IS UNSTABLE, AND THROWS TANTRUMS...AND CONTROLS THE FLEET WITH HIS MIND. HE MOVES THE SHIPS WITH HIS FORCE POWERS. So while this venue has little to do with pleading to the producers, the bottom line remains -- this is a series with massive potential that will never be realized. They showed a glimpse of what Star Wars could be -- epic space battles, Darth Vader. And they still only did that for about 15 minutes out of 2 hours. MAKE THE MOVIE ABOUT THE BAD GUYS AND STAY ON THEM ALREADY. I get they made billions so far and will keep making billions, but Luke Skywalker is NOT who anybody is really waiting for. You're waiting to find out who SNOKE is (damn well better be Maul) and waiting to see the new bad-*** chick try and take him down. Nobody wants to hear long winded dialog in these movies. Nobody cares about the good side of the force darn it. Pisses me off. Can you tell? Movie - 2 stars Special effects - 3 stars Frustration with 8 movies that all skirt the fun parts - YES

I do not know you or your situation but the description you give sounds VERY much like a room treatment issue. Some*times* it sounds good and not others, obviously the room isn't changing but the frequencies played are. At some frequencies there is ringing as the frequency lingers too long compared to the others. Waterfall graphs, from REW or otherwise, can show this clearly and easily if you have a measurment mic.

I had the R-28Fs and a 10SW, so I'm understanding what you're considering. The R-28Fs can go down to about 30hz on their own in a room. That's roughly what the 12SW can do (better than the 10SW can do), although of course there are some benefits to a sub beyond extension. (placement, SPL, sound quality, distortion). So buying a 12SW or 2, would only give you the benefit of being able to place them somewhere else beyond your main speakers and taking some load off of them (which, they are more than capable of handling anyway). So I don't like this option, and yes I had basically this option before(r28f, r25c and 10sw) (replaced with 4 Infinity car subs, another story). As a music guy you will get by just fine with a 112SW which digs down to 24hz. That's a good low end for music listeners with the exception of some hip hop and EDM which when bass heavy can go far lower. IF you like movies, shows, or play serious video games (like me) and like good explosions and dynamics, then the 115SW becomes a better choice, it digs down to 18hz. You really don't need this for music, but will benefit from it for movies and games. The problem you can run into in this hobby is chasing after something when you haven't really planned out what you are chasing after. RIGHT NOW those R-28Fs can dig low enough for most all music. If your Onkyo has some form of autocorrection (Audyssey or simliar) then that will help flatten the low end response of the mains. The main benefit of those big R-28Fs is the low end they can reproduce and do so with low wattage. My gentle advice would be this -- first decide if you really need a sub at this point. Now, this is from a guy with 8 in his systems, so I love subs, but do you need one? Next, assume you do...then can you see yourself ever wanting to hear just about everything in every movie? Then you may want the 115SW. Can you ever imagine yourself wanting to upgrade beyond your R-28Fs and R-25C? If so, then buy for the long term when it comes to subwoofers. Buy the bigger one for now, get a second way down the road if and only if and when you really feel you want or need it. That would usually be to smooth out response over a large seating area. If you are mostly by yourself watching/listening you may never need a 2nd sub (or a first). A critical point to understand about subwoofers is that unlike the rest of the speakers in a setup, there is absolutely no requirement (and little benefit) that the subwoofers be from the same manufacturer, or the same line within a manufacturer, as your other speakers. That is to say that the tonal quality of the subwoofer does not need to somehow match the qualities of the rest of the speakers. There is most definitely a QUALITY component to how well built, how powerful, how durable and how clearly a subwoofer can perform...but there is no requirement to make sure it's a Klipsch, or a Klipsch Reference Sub. So if you do buy a quality Klipsch sub now, you can use it in the future with any speakers you have, Klipsch or otherwise, with no "penalty" or downside to it.

At 588 i take a 115sw hands down.