racebum

most the time i do except ironically audyssey seems to work alright on mid level to better klipsch in larger rooms. with the majority of speakers audyssey is too midrange forward. drop 1-3khz zone a couple db, pop 16khz whatever is needed to get some twinkle in the highs, adjust down 100hz if i'm near a wall and getting too much room gain. set crossovers to what the speakers can handle. tinker until i'm happy. usually very time consuming but better speakers seem to make do with less. the B&W set in my bedroom comes to mind. 603s3 mains, 600LCR center and 600s3 surrounds and an svs sb12nsd. midrange is down a touch with maybe half a db up at 16khz. these are on a marantz sr5011 and this new audyssey reference is terrible. the early roll off on the highs just destroys the dynamics, tries to make everything sound flat. in my considerably larger living room there are rf82ii and rc62ii with energy in walls for the rear with a peerless xxls12 in 3cuft ported. sub can overwhelm everything if i want it to. oddly enough audyssey on the marantz sr5007 in this room works alright except at high volume where the loudness effect it creates starts to struggle. i also have b&w 602s3's in my office on a marantz sr5006 and it's on the EQ but this is just doing 2.1 stereo. normally i tinker one speaker at a time until i get the sound i want, then combine and do the final tune from there i usually aim for a deeper more life like sound and audyssey is not tuned for that. it's all about movie theater smashing effects, a pushed midrange and early roll off. if the system sounds right with music chances are i will love it on HT as well. i'm not a fan of the current movie theater sound. it's too fake for my tastes you may notice a marantz theme here. i'm not a brand warrior i just have yet to hear a HT receiver worth buying that doesn't say marantz or integra on the front. quality separates get expensive. and my current sr5011 could serve as a pre amp should i choose to upgrade to a parasound 5ch i'm far more limited by my budget than my desire which is of course why i have the gear that i do

that's money though. a higher end 25wpc tube integrated is $1500 like http://echohifi.com/details/9905/Manley-Laboratories_Stingray echo is also closing out the pathos line of hybrid tube amps like this one http://echohifi.com/details/10827/Pathos-Acoustics_Classic-Remix i've heard that pathos 70wpc and liked it. warm, tonally neutral. no weird behavior but with some punch on dynamics

older NAD was really good. one test on a 40wpc amplifier here shows it having WAY beyond it's rated power. one favorite of mine is the harman kardon HK990. it has optical inputs and is designed like a real amplifier. they sell around 800-900 used. you also can get into krell and mark levinson used starting around your budget. a 100wpc krell class a/b integrated sold locally for $1000 last week. i'm honestly not sure on new but marantz and yamaha make what's most commonly available. if you go that way try and demo both before purchase

absolutely which in turn means more amp power for less spl as you're chewing up watts trying to flatten out. it's just not a good fit also x2 on the svs suggestion from another. they are well engineered, however, choose honestly. if you have a large room or like getting loud you need large ported drivers. popular subs like the sb12nsd which can be had for 399 is great in a smaller bedroom with 8ft ceilings. it is however out of it's intended use in a living room or large open rooms. the pb2000 is where the higher output subs start. or. if you have deep pockets and want something that's also REALLY musical the JL Audio fathom F113 is a madman. that 13w7 driver they use sounds amazing for how much xmax it has. not 100% sure why JL chose to go sealed and small box. that sub is more efficient ported. then again that means a large box

10 db down at 31hz tells you all you need to know. this isn't a good HT choice. it would need a lot of dsp to try and flatten out and that would require a LOT of amp power. it's also highly efficient and may not sonically blend with what else you have subs are the easiest things in the world to get right. lots of good choices. this just isn't one of them. FYI frys has that klipsch 15 on sale for 399 this week with promo code

test the speaker by itself and listen. will help you hone in on if it's the speaker itself also your crossovers aren't really optimized unless you're having a problem with too much bass from the rf82 which would explain the 80hz point. typically those can play 40hz and up and or just set to large while the rc62 is better off 60-80hz and the rears you adjust by power and presence. if they are in corners 80-100hz often makes sense to keep resonance on the low end down. if they are more open and can handle the power you can tune by ear and go down from there with frequency. the center channel often runs hot and if the cones are moving on that rc62 the distortion will rise in step. watch and listen to that speaker by itself at the loudest volume you listen and try various settings. from what i remember the rc62 gets into trouble at 40hz cross if you put any power to it but operates alright at moderate power at 60hz and higher power at 80hz

which receiver is it? yamaha doesn't have a receiver near the quality of their upper line integrated amps i've heard the rf7 sound amazing and terrible and it all had to do with the room layout and the amplification. having heard the majority of sub $1500 dollar 2015+ model year receivers the only two i would consider say marantz and integra on the front of them. disclaimer. i have not heard the flagship 3000 series yamaha receivers which may be better? it's just as the money climbs a real pre amp processor and dedicated 5ch amplifier start making more sense. speakers often get the most attention for sound quality but in reality they are just a part of the entire picture

test amplifier on other speakers, if good take current speakers apart. check all connections. if good inspect crossovers, any bulging caps? 1996 is 21 years ago so electrolytics should be replaced. madisound, meniscus or parts express all can help you out with those. madisound has been selling brand new less than a year old bennics lately which would be my vote. if you have another woofer like a little 4 inch full range you can hook it to the squaker and tweeter outputs to see if it creates the same distorted sound. if it doesn't your problem is in the drivers, if it does your problem is in the wiring / crossover. an hour of testing could solve all your problems here

the big 3 i always consider for music / media combos are klipsch, B&W, and martin logan. each has a different sound and depending on the room and what's used to push them along with what's being played each of those has strengths and weaknesses. i own 2 of those 3 brands in my own home at the moment. B&W in the office and bedroom and klipsch in the living room. i don't honestly know how bose stays in business. they have always sounded like very well refined $5 speakers....which....may be because they are really well refined $5 raw drivers

for some reason i confused you with usnret...i have no excuse for that one my bad

i think that's what it's all about. nice stuff exists you just won't get it cheap. that new 2100 is built extremely well. one of these days i'm going to buy an HK 990 and try that. it's suppose to be a top contender in the under $1000 used price bracket for newer integrated. as for yamaha, i don't think they make a receiver built like that new 2100. listening to his review and looking at the internals that's a really nice amplifier as is the 1978 model ps i recapped that adcom 5300 you sent me last month. the AC line noise was drastically reduced. kind of surprised me actually

100% agree with you at least when you look at what you can buy for the cost of what the older ones sell for used. new and HQ is $$

this isn't even the same world as their new stuff. if you ever get a chance, try one of their 2017 receivers, just listen to it. the only similarity between what you pictured and one of those are the letters yamaha on the front. they lost the sonic mojo of yesteryear

this is happening to so much of the audio world. people are all about features and sound quality becomes a secondary concern. it's really bad in car audio now. i'm doing a setup in my 4runner and having a terrible time finding a deck that can rival a ten year old eclipse that i have on a shelf. the pre out stage is just terrible with one of the new pioneers that i tried. higher end alpine is likely going to be what i try next. hopefully they still have some of what they use to. the amps sound fine. speakers are fine but god these feature packed decks....all the money is in features

was thinking the cheap lower end receivers when i made that comment. i'm sure their upper level gear is still really good. company has a great music history but their 200-500 dollar receivers just don't have balls and are very flat. one that comes to mind is an aventage a740. set that up for a friend last year. he likes the features but god. i could never get it to sound right vs a similar marantz. it just had no dynamic headroom

if we're talking older, sure, vintage HK and citation is wonderful. the only modern HK that peaked my interest was the HK990 i hate seeing what happened to that brand. pre y2k harman kardon was SUCH a great mid level brand

agree on a wonderful sounding receiver. very warm. tames down the sometimes harsh tones of compression horns. as mentioned it's low wpc rating isn't really accurate since it has substantial headroom. 75-80wpc on dynamics would not surprise me. maybe more

if you actually believe this you may have to realize that you are more tonally unaware or tone deaf than many of us on this board there is an ENORMOUS difference between the sound of sony, pioneer, marantz, denon, yamaha imo marantz and integra are the only two receivers i would consider. they use a better output stage, beefier power supplies. modern pioneer is so dark and undefined. it's like the top end just plays one sound. yamaha can't figure out how to reproduce a midrange to save their life. even marantz may or may not sound good with audyssey enabled. i've heard it sound great and also terrible. depends on the speakers and the room. it also has a drawback of functioning kind of like a loudness button. improves low and moderate volume but chokes when you crank it ponder this. if there was no sound difference between amplification why would someone pay 10x the price for the same wattage in krell vs adcom and adcom is even a solid entry level amplifier to the OP world wide stereo on ebay has newer integra receivers at a great deal for refurbs. marantz is a bit harder to buy cheap. do you need 4k and hdmi 2.2? if you can get by with a 1080p receiver deals are everywhere. i picked up a marantz sr5007 for 240 the other day and will be using it in a system i'm doing for a friend if you're doing just music some of the older receivers like harman kardon are wonderful sounding. a lot of their stuff pre year 2000 is really decent. the one mentioned in this thread is a jewel if you can live with lower power AND it's been recapped, gone through etc. some of these amps are getting oid enough that the caps have went beyond their useful life, especially on the PSU and output stage. they may work but they don't work optimally

you're absolutely right and it's not necessarily what the graph says as much as how your ears perceive how the sound is reproduced. the b&w 800 series virtually across the board sounds wonderful and i do agree the khorns are brighter...substantially so. i had a pair of heresy 2's for awhile and just could never get into their sound. could be the amps, could be the music i listen to. could be the hardwood floors. i thought about this after my last post and it's not so much that i want a tweeter to ramp up. it's more of how that tweeter reproduces the sound. i like klipsch with most cinema. it can sound good with early rock music, often paired with a high quality tube amp. i've noticed most klipsch speakers. ones worth buying anyway like the reference v or now reference premier and up are very particular with room setup and the amps you feed them with. modern music on the other hand. B&W all the way. if you're playing rap, beats or dance/trance B&W really come to life. you also can have two speakers that look the same on paper but sound completely different to your ear. i learned this the hard way years ago buying speakers that measured similar to a pair i loved. the sound they made was not even close to the same

you can make those speakers look pretty should you want to. i have refinished some with an industrial finish using auto paint. basecoat clearcoat in a pure black. the clearcoat gives it a lacquer appearance. the wood will soak up a lot of paint but it can be minimized getting a good clearcoat seal first to put paint on top of. it will take quite a few hours but you could have a set of perfect gloss black {or any other color} speakers also agree on recapping. try and keep the ESR similar to original. crites would probably be a place to look for what caps work well. from what i remember he used sonicap. the ESR of a cap can affect the sound of a speaker.

there is almost no sales history of these on the net. the only one i found was from 2013 and it sold for what would be $825 us dollars 1100 canadian if we assume there was no obo. if there was it would be less http://www.usaudiomart.com/details/649095784-klipsch_rt12d/ it's 4 years older now. if you were going to aim high that could be a starting point one also sold recently here but you would have to pm the guy for a price as to what he got http://www.avsforum.com/forum/209-audio-gear/2736649-sf-bay-area-klipsch-set-rf-83-rc-64-rt-12d-sub.html

what is "low cost" to you? the lowest cost one i can think of worth buying would be an older sony ES pre amp. they have remotes, optical and often sell around $100-150 it goes up from there

you have a LOT of room gain it looks like on the low end but your response curve is exactly what i'm talking about. i really don't like rolling tweeters and a fall off above 10k. it sounds too flat. it's alright for movies but most the time i tune for music and let movies fall where they will. audyssey does basically what your freq response shows and i hate that sound. it doesn't sound anything like a nightclub or live event. bring the 1-3khz zone down 2-3db and start to ramp up above 10khz and i'd probably like it. apparently there is an app for some of the better receivers starting with the sr5011 or nicer that let you custom tune. i have to look into that sooner or later

does reference actually pop the top end? in the menu the wording eludes to a roll off. hmm i may have to go play with this. i agree with where your statement is coming from just wish they would allow a little parametric adjustment to what's been done. from what i understand audyssey pro does but not the consumer level offerings. the bass comment is absolutely true and really so is the rest. most people really don't like flat speakers even though they may say they do. they want that low end rise, the slight midrange dip and a little pop on top. when you look at popular speaker brands like the B&W i mentioned their response curves at 1m are exactly that. a bit of bass. midrange drop and a tweeter that ramps up

good how? if a guy likes 30hz a couple db hot you can't adjust that, what about a couple db down in the 1-3khz range? can't adjust that. maybe +1-2 at 16khz, can't adjust that either. audyssey gives you a pre packaged sound you may or may not like. it's not so much about being "good" whatever that even is. it's about personal preference in the tone the sound comes across. audyssey does not often re create a live sound. it's too midrange forward. this can be helpful with understanding movies but it doesn't really sound natural and music can become very colored. i've also noticed that it seems to make a more pleasing sound in large rooms vs smaller ones which have a lot of secondary harmonics and reflections it's a great room setup tool but the way it reproduces sound just does not fit a lot of speakers. b&w is one that it tries to equalize out and it changes their natural sound. b&w often runs the bottom end slightly hot, drops the midrange and ramps up the tweeter. when you run audyssey it will try and flatten that out which just kills the sound