KdAgain

This afternoon I fired up our DTS-10. What a combination with our 51 year old Khorns! I have long wanted a subwoofer, but never dreamed that it would be horn loaded. To say I'm pleased would be an understatement. If the Danley isn't suitable for whatever reason another company to look at is Tweak City Audio. It is owned by Craigsub (Craig Chase) who did the great job with all the sub tests. He is developing a new line of subs that look like excellent performers at value prices. They also have a very good and fun forum. Rod

I will post here and there as soon as I get it going and tuned in. Unfortunately it's going to be awhile. Shipping probably wont be until the end of the month, then it will probably take at least 2-3 weeks to go thru Customs and get here. Then I need to assemble it and do a fair bit of set-up. With the Holiday Season upon us and my need to finish our kitchen reno before Christmas, I'm not sure when I'll have a report. So I think we need to convince Oblio to just drive over and pick one up! Rod

You are very lucky - I am having mine shipped to100 miles north of Vancouver, BC! I'll look for you over there.

I just ordered the new Danley DST-10 Tapped Horn subwoofer. It's only available until probably around Christmas as a kit and then will be sold as a finished product. There is a huge thread on another forum where I learned about it. Is it okay to post a link here? If so I will. It only uses 2 12" drivers but is in a very large cabinet - aprox 60" x 45" x 16" and weighs about 250#. It apparently puts out a LOT of very clean bass, down to about 11 hertz. I have been searching for a good sub (or 2 or 3) for a long time to keep up with my Khorns. I am really excited to finally find one and at the kit price of $975 it seems like an incredible bargain! Rod

A problem with WAV files, besides taking up too much HD space, is that tagging is not supported in the format. The other lossless formats mentioned can have embedded tagging information. And as your collection grows you will most likely find tagging very helpful. I suggest looking at the JRiver player, now Media Center version 14. http://www.jrmediacenter.com/ It is one of the best players for fidelity, has a great organizing system, and can sync to Ipods. Tons of other stuff too! There is a link there to their forum. A bunch of helpful folks, just like here! So if you have any questions before buying, suggest you ask on the forum. Good luck. Rod PS I definitely suggest ripping to FLAC if you are on a PC.

Great price - I bought from them, but recall paying a bit more! It's not DIY - it's fully assembled with everything you need. Remeber it does not have "Audiophile" packaging, nor the pricing. It's marketed to the Pro Audio world where you often get a whole lot more bang for the buck! The player software is Jriver Media Center 13 and is available at jrmediacenter.com (Sorry don't see how to put a link here.) They also have a very helpful forum which is their only support I believe. Think the price is about $40 US and very well worth it. Next winter I plan to digitize my vinyl and I believe the 0404 USB will be a big help there. BTW, be sure to get the 0404-USB, the plain 0404 is a PCI card. It's less money, but not the same animal at all! (Your link is for the correct one.) Rod

I am extremely pleased with my recently purchased EMU 0404-USB. It is a non oversampling DAC but using ASIO will play up to 24 Bit/192K files. It is not a thing of beauty - is built primarily for Pro audio work. I am using it with JRiver MC13 software on a several year old Acer laptop running XP and playing FLAC files. With MC 13 it will automatically set the sample rate based on the file. Quite impressed with what comes out of my Khorns with this setup. Especially for its very modest price. (under $250) This DAC is mentioned on several audio forums, usually with excellent reports. Not sure if it's okay to link to other forums here - is it? If you would like to PM me I can give you links. Good Luck, Rod

I recently purchased my first DAC - an EMU 0404USB. Extremely pleased - incredible bang for the buck! Presently using it on a 3 year old Acer Laptop, but down the road want a dedicated audio server (PC). Player is JRiver MC13. Also use it to rip CDs to FLAC. The EMU is a non oversampling DAC. Used with Jriver it will auto set the sample rate on any file up to 24/192. This DAC is designed for the pro audio industry and is not a thing of beauty. But the sound is wonderful on our old Khorns! Good Luck, Rod

I finally got some time to fiddle with this and here's what I did. Downloaded the free SweepGen software and installed it on a laptop. Hooked the laptop audio out to my preamp and was able to dial in any frequency for testing purposes.When I dialed in a low frequency that only drove the woofer I noticed the base was very weak when listening between the speakers, and strong on far left and far right. (I had noticed this before but attributed it to the Khorn extension along the wall.) But now I became convinced that I had a phase problem. The software has a selection for 180 out of phase which made it easy to reverse phasing from left to right without changing wires. When I selected 180 out - wow - we now have some low end at the sitting position! There was more to do though since I didn't think that one Khorn was out of phase with the other. My hunch was that only one woofer was out of phase and all the other drivers were okay. Here's how I worked it out. I dialed in a frequency that only drove the midrange and confirmed by moving side to side between speakers that they were indeed in phase. Then did the same for the tweeter using a higher frequency. (Was careful not to have high volume with this test for fear of damaging one of the tweeters with a continuous sine wave.) This test confirmed the tweeters were in phase. Now to check the phasing between mids and tweets within a cabinet. With the preamp balance turned to one speaker I selected a frequency that would fairly equally drive both the midrange and tweeter. I moved my head between the mid and tweet and it seemed they were in phase, but it was a little difficult to be certain. I then reversd the wires on the tweeter and did the same. There seemed to be more of a dead spot between them, so this confirmed that they previously were in phase. Put the tweeter wires back where they had been. Did the same for the other cabinet and confirmed that mid to tweet phasing was okay. I know knew that one of the woofers was out of phase since the mids and tweets were in phase between cabinets and within each cabinet. To determine which one I did a test similar to the one used for mids and tweets within a cabinet except I used a low frequency that fairly equally drove the mid and the woofer. By moving between the midrange and the lower side panels I could check the phasing. I reversed woofer wires to confirm what I was hearing. Sure enough the woofer in the left cabinet was out of phase with it's midrange! After reversing the leads on the left woofer I sat down for some serious listening. The Khorns now sound as I have always expected them to: Deep, powerful lows that envelop you but don't boom or seem muddy. My only regret is waiting all these years to really delve into it! So thanks a lot bigblaze for starting this thread. Did you manage to get some low end improvement in your Khorns? And thanks Colterphoto for suggesting phasing. Thanks to Larry for the suggestions on how to listen for phasing. Sorry this post got so long but thought it might be helpful to someone. Rod

Good points, Larry. So this gets me back to finding a way of testing phasing on the whole system. In the past the method I have used on a variety of speakers is to put the preamp to mono. The sound should appear to come from the center of the two speakers as you move your head from side to side. So I guess that we could disonnect to mids & tweets and use this method on the woofers first. This would give proper phasing between L & R. Then do the same for the mids and the tweets. What the above would accomplish is to know that the left and rights are in phase. But still don't know how to know for sure that the drivers within one Khorn are all in phase. Any other ideas out there? Thanks, Rod

Bob, Thanks for the confirmation on the battery testing method - and cool idea to do it at the crossover. I'm a little boggled that I remembered that method from truly 50 years ago, yet sometimes forget something I heard an hour ago. I've heard this happens! Interesting that you find some of the tweeter mismarked. Since I have your new ones that shouln't be a problem - right! Rod

I'm still hoping to find a way to confirm that all my drivers are in phase since conceivably at least one could have it's +- marking reversed. Seems that I remember something from about 50 years ago that you could momentarily touch the leads from a dry cell to the speaker leads. With + to + the cone should move out and by reversing the battery the cone would move in. Now that could work for the khorn woofer (is it safe?) but I don't think you would see anything on the small mid and high drivers. As I'm thinking about this, the bass weakness would be due to the woofers, which we could see by opening the access port. So if the battery test is safe, we could at least confirm the phase on the woofers. Is it safe? Any ideas out there? Bob Crites maybe? Thanks, Rod

Good point! I have the same issue. How do we know for sure, and with all drivers? I have all driver plusses to crossover plusses, and same from amp, but what if one of the drivers is mis-marked? Thanks, Rod

Coytee - Thanks very much for your very well thought out and thorough response to my post. It's really appreciated. Mike - Thanks for researching the various sw packages. We are fortunate to have someone with your knowledge do this! At this point I would find it very difficult to justify the cost of EASRA. Actually, even it did do significantly more than REW it would not fit in my budget - especially these days. The forum that sponsors REW seems to have excellent support of it. There are two areas though that we might have different interests: 1. They seem to use it primarily for subwoofers in home theater applications. 2, Those of us with Heritage type speakers may have some different room treatment requirements. Rod

Coytee, There are other software packages available for much less money. There is the free REW and the $99 TrueRTA, and I'd imagine more. Perhaps their prices reflect their true value, but it seems discussion might be beneficial. Or did you intend this new forum to only be about the software you have referenced? Thanks, Rod

Since the room, and its treatments - or lack thereof - plays such a HUGE part in what we hear I am all for this! Thanks for initiating it. Rod

Gary, Glenn, Gil & Larry, Thanks very much for your well thought out and helpful posts. And sorry for the belated appreciation here! I'm a few months away from rearranging our listening room to put the Khorns on the long wall. We are presently using the room for other purposes and will have to postpone any acoustic improvements until the change. But you all have given me lots of food for thought. I may want to try some of Glenns panels for the first reflection points per Garys suggestions. Perhaps will also experiment with some diffusion. Later when we get a subwoofer some bass trapping will probably be needed to control room nodes. Overall it has been really good to hear that the suspended ceiling is not the big negative I feared it was. Rod

Glen, Rob, William, Larry, Gary, & Jackson, Thanks very much for all your interesting and informative posts on this topic. I'm still trying to digest it all, but it seems that the dropped ceilings may not be a negative as I had thought. Or as Glen said it may be a real benefit! Glen you mentioned that your room doesn't sound dead and with the surround speakers it sounds great. Have you done much two channel listening in that room? I am wonderingif it may be a bit dead without the surrounds. BTW I checked your website - what a fantastic job you have done! Interesting observations about the space above the tiles being helpful. In my case the ceiling is 7' 3" up and about a foot more to the bottom of the joists. Then another 10 or12" up to the subfloor. Way less than the space above Williams office, but probably much more helpful than if I had a sheetrocked 7' 3" ceiling. As far as the mid and treble early reflections, it would seem that this system would absorb some (even with my standard tiles) and then diffuse most of the rest at the joists. If this is the case i wonder how beneficial more absorbent tiles would be? As frequency drops the tiles probably become more transparent and I am then only getting diffusion at the joists. Then some diffusors on the walls would make sense. It would be great to hear from some Khorn owners with dropped ceilings and their take on all this. And finally, JacksonBart - what can I say....... Rod

Glenn - Thanks very much for the informative response and the link to the good tiles. I guess the two issues with typical dropped ceilings are 1. Rattles at the support connection points and 2. Very nonlinear frequency absorption. I'm not sure how you avoided the rattles, unless it's a result of the extra weight of your panels. In looking at the absorption characteristics of your panels they don't appear to be very linear, but perhaps much more so than the typical panels. Glad to hear that you are very pleased with this approach. It looks a little pricey, but you must feel the extra cost is justified. With so much absorption in the ceiling does the room sound at all dead? Also with our Khorns, I think it's recommended to have high ceilings. I have been concerned about any effect our present panels (at 7') may be giving, and wonder if the sound-proofing panels might lessen the ability of the Khorn to 'fill' the room. BTW, our room is only slightly larger than yours. Rod

In another thread on dropped ceilings it was suggested not to use a "Potent Sub" in a room with a dropped ceiling. Unfortunately our Khorn room has a dropped ceiling (7') and we are stuck with it. I'm interested in the effects it has on low bass as we plan to get a large sub in the future? Thanks, Rod

Hi Pete, Thanks, I was just looking for something like this! Where did you get it? Thanks a lot, Rod

I have been using a 430 on my Khorns for several years and am basically pleased, although I sometimes wonder if I should redo some of the caps and other items. I also now and then get upgrade-itas and think perhaps a 'better' amp might be called for. Has anyone done any audible comparison testing with other supposedly better amps? Thanks, Rod

Or could these be the tests he was referring to? http://www.tweakcityaudio.com/forum/showthread.php?t=11 Unfortunately there is no testing shown of any Klipsch subwoofers, but there are several better buys than the Fathom. BTW I was a little hesitant to refer to another manufacturers website - is it bad taste here? I do believe Craig Chases testing to be very unbiased, but..... Rod

And does anyone have experience or opinions on Sansui vs. the old HK Twin Power line? I have ben using a 430 for several years on our Khorns and am basically pleased with it, but every now and then wonder if I am missing much in a better amp. Thanks, Rod

I have an old HK 430 that sounds great on my K Horns. Have never touched it and since I got it at a good price a few years ago on Ebay it probbly never has been re-capped. Does anyone have an idea just how much audible difference re-caping typically makes? Thanks, Rod