Batmans Robin Posted December 31, 2008 Share Posted December 31, 2008 So there. Don't try hosing down your rinky dink MDF speakers after a party or you may not like the result!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunburnwilly Posted December 31, 2008 Share Posted December 31, 2008 No mdf here Batman , errr , Robin . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Batmans Robin Posted December 31, 2008 Author Share Posted December 31, 2008 You're a good man. Now stay out of the sun, will ya? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colterphoto1 Posted December 31, 2008 Share Posted December 31, 2008 say it ain't so! If God had meant for man to listen to music in Quad, he'd have given him 4 ears -Claude Nobs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg928gts Posted December 31, 2008 Share Posted December 31, 2008 Trees aren't laminated with glue and thin layers of wood like plywood either. Ever build speaker boxes out of solid wood? DRAT!!!! Greg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jacksonbart Posted December 31, 2008 Share Posted December 31, 2008 .. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Warren Posted December 31, 2008 Share Posted December 31, 2008 MDF is a good thing. It's density is greater than most plywoods, it's isotropic, it's void free, it's the perfect substrate for veneering and it's cheap. It's win, win, win. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest " " Posted December 31, 2008 Share Posted December 31, 2008 you hose down after a party folks might want to go with cement...has the best qualities of any comparative material and is water tolerant above 32 degrees. I've seen a few tower speakers made with sidewalk mix and they looked pretty good....esp with some coloring added to the mix. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Richard Posted December 31, 2008 Share Posted December 31, 2008 It's density is greater than most plywoods, it's isotropic, it's void free, it's the perfect substrate for veneering and it's cheap It's also weak, brittle, and a terrible material from which to construct loudspeaker cabinets. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Warren Posted December 31, 2008 Share Posted December 31, 2008 It's density is greater than most plywoods, it's isotropic, it's void free, it's the perfect substrate for veneering and it's cheap It's also weak, brittle, and a terrible material from which to construct loudspeaker cabinets. Let's see, the $25,000/pr. JBL "Flagship" K2 S9800 cabinet is made from 1" thick MDF (such dopes, huh!). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Groomlakearea51 Posted December 31, 2008 Share Posted December 31, 2008 MDF.... MDF has come a long way to be sure... It's use in speaker cabinets, while sometimes touted as having some sonic or acoustic "improvement" is not based really upon the fact that it's a "high end" construction material.... Look at it from the perspective of the degree of importance to a speaker cabinet manufacturer: it's cheap - Probably the #1 reason for commercial use. MDF... When mentioned as a "superior quality material" in marketing ads, IMHO, it's sorta like lipstick on a pig and calling it a hot date..... It's density is greater than most plywoods - Reduces resonance thus any acoustic dampening material costs are reduced. it's isotropic - Very easy to machine, cuts are thus identical in any direction... no "splintering", extremely smooth routed surfaces, etc, thus very accurate in assembly and thus less waste. it's void free - I say the jury could still be out on that one, because unless the voids in plywood are quite extensive, are to the point of some structural failure issues, or on the surface layer of the plywood, the overall effect on resonance are probably negligible. it's the perfect substrate for veneering - Could be argued.... Reason is that unless the veneer glue is proper consistency, thickness and application temperatures are correct... it will lift just like any other improperly prepared substrate. To wit: cheap MDF cabinets with crappy veneer that's coming off after about 2 rainy seasons..... It's weak - Unfortunately, it's isotropic structure (and the fact that the fibers are microscopically short), is it's own enemy.... It has little or no flexibility, and.... It's simply brittle.... - If MDF was such a good (or strong) construction material.... then it would be used instead of plywood in home building applications such as roof sheathing, flooring substrate, etc. It's resistance to impact damage is notoriously poor. Not only does an impact permanently damage the surface, it also exposes and compromises the fibers and binder. 3/4" thick PT plywood is extensively used for hurricane shutters. MDF? Impacts at anything above about 30 mph will take out a piece of MDF of the same thickness. All that being said.... and since speakers designed for indoor use are usually not designed for impact or load bearing applications, they can easily be made from properly veneered (as in protected..), adequately braced MDF... at a substantial cost savings over quality plywood of the same thickness. Normally this construction poses no issues... until the flowers get over-watered, the cabinet is dropped (from any height over about 6 inches...), etc.. And that is very evident... Lately almost every Heresy-II that I come across as a candidate for a refurb has serious problems with impact damage and often as not, the consequent damage caused by exposure to moisture. To give you an idea of how MDF is regarded by home builders/ contractors (at least here in Florida), all of the ones in my village will no longer specify MDF for kitchen or bathroom cabinetry. It's too cheap and inevitably has to be replaced within 10 years. Insurance companies are also getting picky. After Hurricanes Frances, Jeanne, Wilma, etc., they are insisting on veneered plywood as the material of choice. It's biggest problem, other than the fact that it has little structural flexibility, is that it's extremely susceptible to water damage. Any isotropic substrate that: (a) relies upon a soluble glue as the binder, or ( has sufficient porosity to absorb water (and has a natural affinity for moisture) when any covering such as veneer, laminate, etc., is removed is going to have that problem. Not knocking anyones' preference for speaker cabinets or a material to work with and make cabinets. MDF will work just fine as long as the user knows what will happen if it gets wet or gets dropped. Just my thoughts on MDF. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colterphoto1 Posted December 31, 2008 Share Posted December 31, 2008 Klipsch Professional loudspeakers with the fibreglass mat covering and aluminum edges is pretty 'everything' proof. Heck, you can't even toss a beer bottle into the woofer on an LSI or HIP cabinet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Groomlakearea51 Posted December 31, 2008 Share Posted December 31, 2008 Subtle as usual.... Thanks CP!!![<)] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colterphoto1 Posted December 31, 2008 Share Posted December 31, 2008 They've got that expanded metal mesh material behind the Heritage cloth on models KP250 and KSM2 also. Kinda like you Blues Brothers use chicken wire for. Breaks up the debris as it makes it way for the stage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Richard Posted January 1, 2009 Share Posted January 1, 2009 Let's see, the $25,000/pr. JBL "Flagship" K2 S9800 cabinet is made from 1" thick MDF (such dopes, huh!). Dopes? Not JBL. They increased their profits by using cheaper materials of construction, at the expense of true "flagship performance". MDF is used mostly because of costs, not performance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Warren Posted January 1, 2009 Share Posted January 1, 2009 Dopes? Not JBL. They increased their profits by using cheaper materials of construction, at the expense of true "flagship performance". MDF is used mostly because of costs, not performance. What do you define as "flagship" from JBL? A pair of vintage Soveriegn C-60s (veneered particle board), L-200 Studio Masters (veneered particle board). The only supplier I know that doesn't use MDF is Wilson, they use Phenolic plate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Richard Posted January 1, 2009 Share Posted January 1, 2009 What do you define as "flagship" from JBL? JBL has no loudspeakers for home use that are much good, save for possibly the Everest, if that's the name. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HDBRbuilder Posted January 1, 2009 Share Posted January 1, 2009 JBL was one of the first to go with particle board, but on the "flagships" that John Warren mentions, it was NOT MDF which JBL initially used, but was LDF instead, which has even fewer of the particle board "sonic advantages" of MDF, and doesn't even have the density or smooth cut characteristics of plywood. In addition, John, just try to build a Hartsfield out of MDF and that was a TRUE JBL "flagship" speaker, agreed?? MDF is just another name for particle board. Its density consistency is its ONLY true good quality. It is NOT a better glue surface for veneer than plywood unless the veneer is especially thin and the surface ply of the plywood is especially coarse, which unfortunately is the case for both NOWADAYS. MDF and LDF are loaded with aromatic chemicals which will "gas off", eventually bubbling up under the glue surface of the veneer, likely lifting the veneer off the MDF in the process. How do I know this?? Simply because I have seen it, ON JBL's!!! Remember, one of the biggest downsides to using MDF over plywood is the wear and tear which MDF causes on sharpened tools like saw blades and router bits, both of which are expensive to sharpen and replace, not including the downtime and labor costs associated with replacing those items on cutting tools! The argument on which is better can go on forever, but the bottom line is that if quality veneered lumbercore plywood was available at a lower price than that of veneered MDF, the speaker manufacturers would be using it instead of MDF, plain and simple! If there was ever a good time to get companies like Georgia Pacific to go back to producing a high quality veneered lumbercore at a decent price, the time is NOW while wood product maufacturers are struggling to stay alive. It is currently a buyers' market out there for those products, but I doubt Klipsch OR JBL will see that until it is to late to take advantage of it!! I have personally seen Georgia-Pacific salesreps and others wandering around toeven the smallest wood product using shops and stating they are getting back into hardwood sales, lumbercore plywood products, etc, and they are feelingaroudfor some kind of pricing guidelines to make it happen. They have been out of the loop in it for so long after putting their concentration only into the housing costruction produts market,that they have no idea what to do!! They just know they must do something and fast or become more of the jobless in this country right now! When times are hard, it is much better to settle for fewer profits than to go out of business! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djk Posted January 1, 2009 Share Posted January 1, 2009 Hmm..........18mm, 13-ply birch plywood. http://www.jblpro.com/catalog/general/Product.aspx?PId=43&MId=4 Their cheapest JRX series is MDF, the low priced MRX series is 'top quality plywood', the better stuff is 18mm, 13-ply birch plywood. The cinema series is a special 1" industrial grade variable-density board that has big wood chips in the center, progressing to fine chips at the faces, with a laminate on the faces. On a Cornwall sized box there are three 2x4 braces, glued on edge the long way, with a fourth 2x4 from front to back. The 2x4s and the interior surfaces are covered with fiberglass batt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Warren Posted January 1, 2009 Share Posted January 1, 2009 Touring and cinema stuff is always plywood. It takes pounding, abuse and mositure better. The residiential stuff was particle board and now MDF. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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