Klipsch RT-12d vs. JL Audio Fathom f113

[Andy W]

Here's the F113:

http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/subwoofer-tests/8152-jl-audio-fathom-f113-new.html

you are an employee of Klipsch right? Non biased? <snip>

Ask craigsub to demo it. You might get slapped.

We have one, I have demoed it.

Biased? Of course, but the chart above pretty much describes the (non)experience. When the low bass hits hard, the Fathom simply throws in the towel.

Is the RT-12 perfect? Not by any means; the Palladium P-312W is far better, and dollar for dollar the P-312W stomps the Fathom into the ground.

[Jay481985]

graphs on the palladium?

Also Andy, was the f113 I saw at Indy the one tested?

[TheEAR]

All compact(volume to driver size ratio) sealed subwoofers will exibit evident compression when pushed where the heavy boost (EQ,PEQ) is. In this case it is easy to see where JL "forced" the natural response to obtain a "flat" response up to where the driver reaches its limits.

Again , up to 105dB measured outside you can add around ~10dB to the result inside(room gain).The wekling 10dB is more line 115dB,if you listen much louder than that yo8 are hearing impaired. Or a war veteran who was assigned to firing heavy shells for too long. []

[Trey Cannon]

Here is a test for you.

Find a source with a 20Hz sine wave, connect it to a sub, Turn the output up to about 300 - 500 mV and listen.

If you hear more than air moving, you have found the distortion in your sub.

[Trey Cannon]

graphs on the palladium?

Also Andy, was the f113 I saw at Indy the one tested?

Yes it was Jay

[Trey Cannon]

The room can account for 4 - 18 db of gain. When we test outside we use 2 locations. 1 is 1/2 space (ground plane) where the closest boundary is about 40ft away and #2 is in 1/8th space or in the corner built outside just for testing low frequency. It is easy to see the gain provided in the 1/8th space to 1/2 space test. It is found to be about a 9db delta. Which stands to reason because you get 6db of gain each time you double the boundary. In an ideal world that would give you 12db of delta, but you don't get something for nothing in this world so about 3db is lost do too many imperfections in reality.I am not sure where the test that the good DR. points out were ran, but you would have to assume that there is some amount of gain present. As for volume, the THX Ultra 2 spec is 120db in a 3000 cubic ft room from 20 - 20k Hz, With the sub being no more than 14db down at 16Hz relative to 20Hz, Thus controlling the roll off of the sub.I put this out there trying to help with the understanding of this topic.

[Jay481985]

graphs on the palladium?

Also Andy, was the f113 I saw at Indy the one tested?

Yes it was Jay

It was a off the shelf f113, they even kept the original boxes.

[Rockets]

I have a RT-12d (with special thanks to Mike Colter) and I love it. Seriously, I could not ask for anything more, at least in my room. I find it tight and controlled and not boomy in the least. Excellent servo control. No, I didn't compare it to a Fathom, but it's hard to believe anything could be that much better if at all. Compared to my old Sunfire, there is no comparison, but that's an apple to oranges deal anyway.

However, Klipsch could do a better job with the shipping box. My sub did arrive damaged, from what appeared to be a size 12 boot kicking the living shizz out of the box. No doubt the UPS gorilla got po'd after the hand hole in the box ripped from the weight....

[m54]

thanks haus (Trey)

... another thing to remind folks about is that loud bass is pleasant, and it needs to be loud to truly hear/feel the infrasonics...~ 20 Hz.

So whoever thinks 110-115dB is enough, that's fine. The ear (no dude, not you/ the human ear) can tolerate more without pain or damage, and in nature bass gets pretty loud.

But there are true bass junkies here and those that appreciate clean and loud, which is the hallmark of Klipsch and one of the very reasons we entered into the sub category in the first place.

[Ricci]

Interesting thread. I've heard a LOT of subs and the F112 that I heard was fairly impressive because it sounded good and was tiny. Does it compare to something that is actually allowed to use some space and enclosure volume? No. Let's keep a little perspective here. The F113 was tested at 2 meters GP outdoors, NOT 1 meter and it's in a big parking lot with nothing within 10m. All tests done by Illka and AVtalk both are in this format. It pulled off about 110db or more clean from 30hz up (90% of music) and is a bit over 100db at 20hz before the compression starts hammering down in that scenario.This from a box of 19.25x19.25x 16.5. SMALL and it's not a resonant system. Put it in a room and it should be doing much better. Yes the THD skyrockets once it gets overdriven in the 16-25hz range. The amp is probably clipping all to hell at that point and the driver is getting into the 3" p2p range. Physics at work there. Totally expected. They are obviously shaping the response to get down that low flatly so the amp and driver face the biggest demands there and it shows.I would hope that the RT-12D can muster some more 18-20hz output than this tiny sealed box being it's a resonant system that I'm going to guess is tuned somewhere 16-20hz. I also assume that there is HPF in there too.

I'm not saying either is better than the other. I don't own either. I don't happen to think that the F113 is the best thing since sliced bread, but I am impressed with what they get out of an enclosure that small. Without testing by an unbiased 3rd party (sorry Klipsch employees) of both the RT12D and the F113 most of this benchracing is speculation. Maybe you guys can get an RT12D sent to Illka or AvTalk. Actually screw the RT12, send the Palladium sub.

[Mark Casto]

why make a post like this if you cant afford either one? I own the Fathom and have the Klipsch RF-83 system except for the sub. Why would I pay double for the Fathom over the RT-12D? Because the RT-12D didnt do enough for me. Now take a man that never has heard the Fathom and he would be happy. Not me though.

[DrWho]

The F113 was tested at 2 meters GP outdoors,
NOT 1 meter and it's in a big parking lot with nothing within 10m. All
tests done by Illka and AVtalk both are in this format.

Thanks for pointing that out Ricci. Half space at 2m instead of 1m...so just add 3dB to correlate it to half space.

Btw, I personally consider anything over 3% THD to be too much distortion.
So at 90dB you're only getting clean output (by my standards) to 30Hz.
Even calling that 100dB indoors really isn't that impressive.

But I agree, it's impressive what they can get out of such a small cabinet.

[TheEAR]

I would not be surprised to see the f113 do very well versus the RT-12d when tested the exact same way,GP. Each manufacturing company will defend its products and try to give a black eye to the competition. Independent testing performed by Ilkka, who I can trust as a unbiased source.

Now those who buy the f113 look at HSU's new sealed or Paradigm's Servo Signature 25 as options. When ported goes the SVS Ultra and eD's huge performers find new homes easy. The RT-12d is a very fine subs as long as you do not demand much output down deep(nature of a smaller ported sub that has to remain quite efficient),there is only so much mass you can add and the more mass you add,the less efficient it becomes.The lower the tune,the less output you get(while trying to maintain a linear response over the frequency the sub covers).

[Rockets]

Hey, I admit I'm pretty much a novice, and my opinion is like everyone's sphincter, but when I hear reports the RT-12d doesn't go deep, Or doesn't have enough power. I just have to throw the BS flag....are we talking the same sub?? Really?

Screw the charts, though I loved the flat line chart of the RT-12d, How's this for real world data. My house is concrete block. In the middle of the house I have a brick fireplace that acts as a room divider and on the back side contains our kitchen wall oven. The oven is 30 feet away from the subwoofer...which is in another room separated by a concrete wall. The room the sub is in is 24' by 24'. At 75% volume, I can get the wire shelves to dance inside the wall oven Glassware and dishes are doing the tango in the kitchen cabinets. This sub doesn't go LOW enough?? Give me a freaking break. It goes low, it''s clean, it's tight, it's controlled ,it's more than I need and it'd destroy my house if I let it. At full volume I'd have 4 cheeks and two chins shaking. As it is I already have nails and screws backing out of my drywall from shaking the crap out of the house.

I don't know who did the demo for the naysayers, but they need to set the controls themselves and listen again because they certainly are not feeling the same sub. Maybe it's me, and I'm too dumb to know that what I really own is a POS. I do know that I'd need to move into a bomb helter to own something "better".

Just exactly what are you listening to at 20hz anyway?

[SWL]

At full volume I'd have 4 cheeks and two chins shaking

......The benchmark in which we all base our subwoofer purchases on. []

[TheEAR]

Rockets,

We listen to test tones,they are more musical than today's top 40 Silicone Spears and all the fifi boys bands combined! [] The RT-12d is a very good sub,if it was near a "POS" I would not even bother. In fact the whole RSW and RT line are good subs.

Not deep enough for what? Pipe organ reproduction for one,the rest. They do very well. Today you will see a sea of little Me Too's who brag how there is something at 6Hz in some POS movie! They love to post charts, charts that are IM(very very humble)O a grand waste of space in cyberspace.These people need to be sent to the front lines to get a dose of what loud is. []

[DrWho]

lol, I totally agree [Y]

[Trey Cannon]

I think we all agree that both subs are very good product.

I think JL did a fine job with the f113.

FYI: When we test products, ours and others, we do so "heads up". Or goal in the testing is to know where we stand next to the other product.

IF we do not hang with them, we go back to work. We do not want to product a sub that will not hang or beat the comp. in the price range.

The JL sub was tested against the P312 not the RT. It cost many more $$$ than the RT. I think its cool that we keep up at a much lower cost.

BTW: The THX U2 sub system will get louder than both of them...[6]

[Beesley]

Benchmark review from one of the more respected online magazines out there. Must read the entire review to see not only measurements, but the reviewers own personal opinion. If you get a chance take a look at the Palladium review they did as well.

http://www.sdinfo.com/volume_13_4/klipsch-rt-12d-subwoofer-december-2006-part-1.html