Another opinion about cables...

[Hifi jim]

For those who have looked at Stereophiles forum in the past couple of years, you may recognize the name Stephen Mejias. He's the forums moderator and has his own blog where he has written about his journey into Hi Fi. Stephen wasn't hired because of his audio prowess but in the company of Stereophile editors he has quickly gone from a boom box system to something more worthy. It has been interesting to read about his Hi Fi adventures and his new love: vinyl. Stephen recently had an opportunity to hear and compare some various cables from Nordost. His experiences which he shares here: http://blog.stereophile.com/stephenmejias/open_to_differences/ , seem to mirror my own when I compared them at my dealer some years back. It is an interesting read from somebody who has only been in Hi Fi a relatively short time.

[Guest " "]

HiFi Jim

What cables do you have in house?

I have cables I got dirt cheap on ebay.....we should do a reigional shoot out of some cables to see if our aging ears can tell a difference.

I hope the differences are not above 12K, becuase I won't be able to hear them.

[SilverSport]

dollars or hertz???

Bill

[Mallette]

I didn't respond as Jim knows my thoughts on this subject and I did not see a point in appearing to rain on his thread. However, since it's been broached, let me state them.

1. I fully believe that Jim and others on this list hear differences in cables. It would be both arrogant and metaphysically absurd to suggest otherwise.

2. I do NOT believe that cables affect accuracy, assuming they are in good conductive condition. I believe them to be in the category of "different," in the same sense that tubes, SS, and digital amps can all be equally accurate, and yet have different preceptive qualities to the listener.

Like tubes, caps, and such, I personally do not want to learn to discern these things as I feel it leads to issues I just don't care to attempt to deal with and for which I fear there may be no answer. I just want the air vibrations that were converted to an electrical analog by the microphone to be reproduced in my listening room as accurately as possible.

Dave

[Don Richard]

A few observations:

In a recent issue of Stereo-pile I counted 11 ads from cable manufacturers and sellers. That's a lot of advertising $$ for the magazine. Swapping cables is an easy thing to do. Hey, any doofus who knows nothing can swap cables and think that improved the sound of their system. And the ex-spurts at the mag are telling them that it does.

"Perception is reality", Vince McMahon, Chairman of WWE Entertainment, a multi-billion dollar a year business. It's all about marketing.

When a magazine takes advertising $$ in exchange for good reviews, that could be considered implicit collusion. In some jurisdictions that sort of activity is considered fraudulent.

The connectors in any cabling system are the most frequent source of problems. When swapping a cable the chassis connector gets wiped, removing any corrosion that may be causing a bad contact, possibly causing sonic improvement. Spraying the old cable's connectors with DeOxit then reinstalling the old cable will accomplish the same result. DeOxit and similar products cost about $20 for a can that will last for years. Periodic use of such products will keep one's system operating at peak performance.

Have a nice day[]

[Mallette]

Some of the following is as much question as opinion...

Given the size of the conductive area of an RCA connector, I cannot see how oxidation or anything else would impact sound quality. Either the current passes or it does not. It might be intermittent, but it would either pass a complete signal or not. This is DEFINITELY the case with digital signals, and I believe it to be the case with electricity.

I use very basic cables and always have. Never heard one better than another, nor anything in others systems with more expensive ones that would suggest anything related to the conductivity of the cables. They either worked or didn't, and any issue was intermittency or signal degradation from RF or a bad ground fixable with another cable.

My recording test against the Stereophile guys, which produced a preference for my amateur effort, was done with these types of cables whilst the other guys touted their megadollar connections.

I am always ready to learn, but I am still waiting for a case for anything beyond 100% copper to make sense or for someone to prove PWK wrong on zip cord being sufficient for all things Heritage.

Jim, please tell me to go away if you wish. I like you and your opinions and don't want to be a thread spoiler...

Dave

[russ69]

I LOVE CABLE THREADS! Where's that smiley with the popcorn box? I also love the arguments from the "flat earth" guys, it always goes like this: "I've never used anything but zip cord and I never will." How's that for an informed opinion?

Peace and love, Russ

P.S. I'm reminded of WC Feilds; Never smarten up a chump!

[Hifi jim]

HiFi Jim

What cables do you have in house?

I have cables I got dirt cheap on ebay.....we should do a reigional shoot out of some cables to see if our aging ears can tell a difference. 

I hope the differences are not above 12K, becuase I won't be able to hear them.

 

 

 

I'm currently using Kimber Timbre interconnects between my Oppo player and Yamaha AVR. For speaker cable, I'm using some pretty old Monster Cable which were the only runs long enough for my current application. I've recently consolidated and packed up much of my 2 channel gear, the extra interconnects that I'm not using I sent to Mark (mdeneen) who found them too short for his application (they're only .5 m), and now Pat (Speedball) has them. They are the Nordost Blue Heaven and Kimber PBJs. Pretty much entry level for both companies, but a good way to get an idea of what their sonic differences are... or aren't. [] It was my hope that we could send them around this forum and get different members to chime in with their findings. If you're interested speakerfritz, I'll put you on the list. But keep in mind both pairs of these interconnects are only half meter lengths.

[Hifi jim]

I do NOT believe that cables affect accuracy, assuming they are in good conductive condition.  I believe them to be in the category of "different," in the same sense that tubes, SS, and digital amps can all be equally accurate, and yet have different preceptive qualities to the listener.  

I think you've got a point Dave. I'm not sure that more expensive cables are necessarily more accurate, but I do feel that like better amps, or speakers, better cables just give you more of everything. More bass, more presence, more detail and a lot more air and soundstage information. This maybe why cables are very hard to correctly match with any given system. Klipsch speakers in my experience, do not show the difference between cables as easily as some cone and dome type speakers. This is not to say that Klipsch are less resolving, but as one reviewer remarked, it seems that Klipsch (like most horns) give more of a disc-to-ear presentation than other designs which give a more "hi-fi" presentation focusing more on the soundstage and air around the instruments and vocalists. I'd agree, and also add that maybe why most Klispch-heads dislike many other speaker designs (or at least non-horn loaded), and why most cone and dome or electrostat/planar fans don't like horns. Horns simply have a very life like presentation that is very addictive in my opinion. Different horses for different courses, I suppose. Some speaker designs simply require the best speaker cable and accessories. I have some experience with the B&W Nautilus series and can tell you that comparing cables on some 802s was quite a revelation. Plain old copper Monster sounded good but a bit harsh in the highs, muffled in the mids, and short on bass, but changing to some Tara Labs cables was an ear opener. In addition to the extra detail, the highs were smoother, the mids more present, and the bass firmer, the Taras also added sharper imaging, better soundstaging and more air. Would these same differences be heard on any Klipsch speaker, maybe, maybe not. I can't say, as I've never compared those cables on Klipsch. The speaker cables I have tried on Klipsch are Nordost (which I didn't like with my SS amp), Kimber 4tc (very nice), and Monster (not as detailed, and a bit sloppy in the bass). I don't think any of these will change your life Dave, but they may change your perspective about cables. If you are able to use half meter interconnects, let me know and I'll add you to the list of members trying out the Blue Heavens and PBJs.

[Hifi jim]

In a recent issue of Stereo-pile I counted 11 ads from cable manufacturers and sellers. That's a lot of advertising $$ for the magazine.

Are there not an equal, if not more, number of amplifier and speaker ads. Are those reviews then fudged too?

When a magazine takes advertising $$ in exchange for good reviews, that could be considered implicit collusion. In some jurisdictions that sort of activity is considered fraudulent.

Where is the proof of this? Conspiracy theorists unite!

The connectors in any cabling system are the most frequent source of problems. When swapping a cable the chassis connector gets wiped, removing any corrosion that may be causing a bad contact, possibly causing sonic improvement. Spraying the old cable's connectors with DeOxit then reinstalling the old cable will accomplish the same result. DeOxit and similar products cost about $20 for a can that will last for years. Periodic use of such products will keep one's system operating at peak performance.

This is certainly true, however after going back and forth between cables I feel I've pretty much cleaned any oxidation off the connectors the first, second or third time around.

[Hifi jim]

Jim, please tell me to go away if you wish.  I like you and your opinions and don't want to be a thread spoiler...

Nope. You and your valued opinions are always welcome Dave. I welcome the discussion.

[Hifi jim]

I also love the arguments from the "flat earth" guys, it always goes like this: "I've never used anything but zip cord and I never will." How's that for an informed opinion?

Thanks for bringing up one of my biggest pet peeves in audio Russ. Those who know the sound of something they've never heard. For the longest time, I thought I knew what Planar type speakers were about. I disliked most everything about them, and never thought they would sound anything like they do. 15 years ago, my dealer had to drag me into the listening room, but was I glad he did. Life is full of surprises!

[russ69]

HiFiJim,

I think you hit the nail on the head. What is the bigger surprise to me is some people are so reluctant to try switching some cabling. I've never found anybody that has tried 3 or 4 speaker cables end up chosing zip cord but I'm willing to keep an open mind. If zip cord works the best for your system, you darn well better keep it!

Thanx, Russ

[Mallette]

HiFiJim,

I think you hit the nail on the head. What is the bigger surprise to me is some people are so reluctant to try switching some cabling. I've never found anybody that has tried 3 or 4 speaker cables end up chosing zip cord but I'm willing to keep an open mind. If zip cord works the best for your system, you darn well better keep it!

Thanx, Russ

I have been to listening tests at other peoples places and never heard a bit of difference on my own recordings from lamp cord to yougottabeshittinme per foot. I've used all sorts of stuff over 40 years of audio engineering and related work, and the only differences I've seen is in construction. I always spent extra to make sure nothing failed due to rough use, which varied from the jungles of southeast Asia to the jungles of Florida.

I guess I just don't see how formulas would know the difference.

I know my ears don't, and I can tell one mic from another most of the time, always tell when a mixer is involved, and occasionally even tell where a muscian was in a recording before being panned elsewhere.

Perhaps we just all have our talents and quirks.

Again, I want to make it clear I do not question those with the ability to discern a difference. I find it amazing and at conflict with logic, but I do not question it...that would be arrogant and metaphysically absurd. Heck, one of you may be God for all I know...best to not make assumptions about things you cannot know.

Dave

[russ69]

Malette says: "I have been to listening tests at other peoples places and never heard a bit of difference on my own recordings from lamp cord to yougottabeshittinme per foot."

I wouldn't be able to hear the differences either, in that circumstance. I use my own system for evaluation, something I know. Demos of other people's sytems are fun but not very useful for gear evaluation, too many variables. Have you tried any different cables in YOUR system? What make/model? Where in the chain was it inserted? All sound the same? I'd be interested in your results. Sometimes I wish I couldn't hear any difference, I could save a ton of money.............

[Hifi jim]

I use my own system for evaluation, something I know. Demos of other people's sytems are fun but not very useful for gear evaluation, too many variables. Have you tried any different cables in YOUR system? What make/model? Where in the chain was it inserted? All sound the same? I'd be interested in your results.

I have to agree with Russ here Dave. Try some cables in your own system, with recordings you are very familiar with. I've tried to quickly A/B cables comparing only one or two songs and while a difference is heard, it's not as great a difference as using one set of cables for a week or more (while enjoying all of your favorite recordings), and then switch and listen to another set for another week or more. For me, this makes the differences even more pronounced. Dave, if you're able to try some half meter RCA interconnects in your system, please PM your info to me, and I'll see that your next to try out the Blue Heavens and PBJs. Try 'em between your cd player and pre, or between your pre and amp. I'd love to hear your impressions.

[Mallette]

Makes sense, Russ. Especially the last line...

My own system plays back my recordings accurately. Therefore I've had no need to make such comparisions there. I am keenly aware of some issues with the space my systems occupy and such, but not noticing anything tied to the hardware.

To begin trying different tubes, copper, caps, power supplies and such would be looking for problems to solve.

I am good with those who pursue such things, but have no desire to join them. I just do music...

Seriously, I believe this hobby has something for everybody, and each of us pursues the something we want. I just want my stuff played accurately, no better, no worse. When I can improve the acoustic issues related to the spaces where I listen, the accuracy will be a tad more realistic and enjoyable...but no more accurate electrically.

If I have a developed or "born with" gift, it's being able to determine the delta between a live performance I've heard and a recording of it and identifying the source of the delta. So far, it's never been the wire involved or the "quality" of the electricity.

Dave

[Fastlayne]

... Sometimes I wish I couldn't hear any difference, I could save a ton of money.............

I had a set of Anti-Cables forgotten about in a box since '05 from when I sold off my 2-channel system. Decided to replace the 12 ga. zipcord that I had connected to the Klipsch, leftover from the old HT setup, and the solid cables are better. Paul Speltz began manufacturing the Zero Autoformer and the cables came later as "anti" high dollar cables. Personally, I dont' want to buy cables for tone controls...I have those already and they are set to flat. I'm sure several super expensive cables perform well, but I don't want or need them. Seems to me that money would be better spent on new music.

Look at the comments on the Anti-Cables website. A lot of people have gotten rid of their mega buck cables after giving the Anti-Cables a try. $10/foot for a stereo pair, $60 for a six foot pair (4 wires with 8 spades) or you can buy his wire for $1.25/ft and DIY. But in the FAQ it says, " Each Spade is "cold welded" (extreme high pressure crimp) to the copper wire." The spades are tinned copper...local RS has nothing like them. Also, there is 30 day return policy.

Do they really sound better or I just think they do? I don't keep them because they look cool, that's for sure. I make my own power cords, and they really do look [Y]

[Hifi jim]

 I had a set of Anti-Cables forgotten about in a  box since '05 from when I sold off my 2-channel system.  Decided to replace the 12 ga. zipcord that I had connected to the Klipsch, leftover from the old HT setup, and the solid cables are better.  Paul Speltz began manufacturing the Zero Autoformer and the cables came later as "anti" high dollar cables.  Personally, I dont' want to buy cables for tone controls...I have those already and they are set to flat.  I'm sure several super expensive cables perform well, but I don't want or need them.  Seems to me that money would be better spent on new music. 

Look at the comments on the Anti-Cables website.  A lot of people have gotten rid of their mega buck cables after giving the Anti-Cables a try.   $10/foot for a stereo pair,  $60 for a six foot pair (4 wires with 8 spades) or you can buy his wire for $1.25/ft and DIY.  But in the FAQ it says, " Each Spade is "cold welded" (extreme high pressure crimp) to the copper wire."   The spades are tinned copper...local RS has nothing like them.  Also, there is 30 day return policy. 

I've heard a lot of great things about the Speltz Anti-Cables, and your testimony certainly echoes that. I thought perhaps you were mistaken with respect to the spades being tin plated copper, but the website confirms this. Seems odd, as most manufacturers prefer gold or rhodium plating which are much more expensive, but tinned copper is usually avoided in interconnects and speaker wire. My guess is that this is a cost restraint, but it obviously has no ill effect in your system. As far as "buying cables for tone controls", I feel this is a misconception that is oft repeated when speaking of cables. If an amp, preamp, cd player, or speakers are replaced in a system because the prior was either too bright, or dull, etc.; it is not thought of as using those components as tone controls. So if cables are another component in the chain, then what is the difference? And which cables then are absolutely neutral? Like every other component, there are no perfectly neutral amps, speakers, or cables for that matter. To me, it's all about synergy like everything we do with our systems, finding the perfect match. Not too much of this, and a little more of that, and finally Magic! Thanks for sharing Fastlayne and welcome to the forum.

[psg]

I LOVE CABLE THREADS! Where's that smiley with the popcorn box? I also love the arguments from the "flat earth" guys, it always goes like this: "I've never used anything but zip cord and I never will." How's that for an informed opinion?

Peace and love, Russ

P.S. I'm reminded of WC Feilds; Never smarten up a chump!

Hmm. Except that in the flat Earth analogy, it's the faith-based non-scientific crowd that are the "flat-earth" guys and refuse to believe. That would be the "I can't measure anything different but they sound different" crowd of expensive cables.

My pet peeve is if $50/foot cables brings you so closer to the original receording, wouldn't that presume that such expensive cables were used to make the original recording? Given the very long chain, I doubt that.

I have never tried super expensive cables but have never heard a difference between run-of-the-mill cables. If cables were so sensitive, you would think that there would be more difference between all these cheap cables than between one of them and a super expensive one; not unlike the vast sound difference between super-cheap speakers.